post in this thread every time uncle kage goes on a drunken power trip

[Jim Demintia]

I wonder how much has changed over the last 12 years, or if in fact what has changed is that they are much more careful about keeping a lid on the horror stories. The easy way to do that is to demand intense loyalty, and to keep the door to entry in the group mostly sealed.

So I wonder how "open" the Dorsai were then as opposed to now? Because it sure seems like we should have had a disgruntled ex-member or two posting somewhere (Usenet?), but AFAIK that's not happened.

[magus]

Senior leadership? Just about zero, from what can be seen, with no apparent grooming of the ranks. I think that's the most likely trajectory, after enough of them have to hang it up, then the whole thing will fall apart. Unless one of the Furries involved tries to salvage it for street cred purposes. As for the rest, I doubt they were ever very open.

[johnnyblanco]

What ProvincialTwit said. I don't know how Kage hooked onto the Dorsai, who were originally created as security teams for science-fiction conventions because rent-a-cops didn't understand geek behavior at cons and were even worse control freaks.  Security for Anthrocon back around 2000 was handled by a group of furries of which the core originated from the Ottawa/Montreal area and - what do you know - the head guy was a military and gun enthusiast. Ten years later, not much change. In this 2011 video, he's the guy in the beret.

Um. No. This guy was the friend I was talking about. His name is Arcticwolf and he has LONG since abandoned the Dorsai. TRRRRUST me on this. He hates them with a passion more than I do. Hell I remember the last time I was at AC (in 09) and we were hanging out in front of Tonic (the bar across the street from the hotel) and he was literally drinking beers and bashing on the Dorsai. It was comedy at it's finest. Yes he's a gun nut or whatever else.. but he's RCMP! Duh!

One advantage of the Dorsai is that if some furry idiot is causing trouble, they're not immersed enough in the fandom to care about popularity wars based on whoever the idiot says he knows, trying to get out of trouble.  Unfortunately the same lack of immersion means they're less beholden to repercussions if their members start throwing their weight around.

Exactly. They really don't care about whatever until they peg someone higher up and a shitstorm happens. This happens at Furfright alot because there's a guy on staff for the Dorsai (sadly, they run security for that con as well) that hates Dragoneer with a passion and even if he's not doing anything wrong this guy from the Dorsai will go after him like a rabid pitbull. That's not doing your job Dorsai.. that's having a grudge. That's like a cop coming over to your house and beating the shit out of you weekly because he doesn't like you.


Another unusual thing about the Dorsai is that they work at both science-fiction and furry conventions - a rare cross-over.  Furry fandom is pretty insular in that most of its members don't go to non-furry conventions, though there's the occasional fursuiter or anime fan and such.  And most people who go to anime and SF conventions stay the heck away from furry conventions.  So I'm curious what stories about Anthrocon the Dorsai take with them to tell the SF crowd.

Supposedly, according to their website they were in existence long before Anthrcon and even furry cons were in existence (way back in 1973 as the website claims) in fact this link http://www.di.org/di_tl.htm shows that the dorsai hadn't reigned in security until then. Now I remember. Arcticwolf used to be a senior staff of security at Anthrocon because of his training and when the Dorsai took over in 2002 he clashed with the way they handled things and I think he just gave up on it and let them run it. I could be wrong but I see it playing out that way.

[greaseyote]

Another unusual thing about the Dorsai is that they work at both science-fiction and furry conventions - a rare cross-over.  Furry fandom is pretty insular in that most of its members don't go to non-furry conventions, though there's the occasional fursuiter or anime fan and such.  And most people who go to anime and SF conventions stay the heck away from furry conventions.

Citation fucking needed. I can't think of any con-going furries I have met who don't also attend anime and/or sci-fi cons. I don't think I know of any furs who don't at least have a passing interest in either sci-fi or anime and who wouldn't at least go to something like Comic-Con if they had the chance or the money. But I'll buy the part that most non-furry geeks want nothing to do with the furry fandom.

Yes, I realize that is a big load of anecdotal evidence, and probably biased by the fact that Comic-Con and Anime Expo are both less than an hour from my house.

Still, the fact that a bunch of Trekkies? travel across the country to a a fur-con to run security for "free" when the whole furry thing is light years away from their interests seems so odd. I mean, I wouldn't do it, even for copious amounts of beer. But I guess I have have something resembling a life.

And as cons get larger, I would think more of them would have to turn to actual "professional" security staff.

[ProvincialTwit]

Have you knuckleheads forgotten that the whole 'furry' thing spawned from sci-fi cons to begin with?  Among the current generation of furfags, sure, sci-fi and furry cons are a "rare cross-over"; but go back 15 years to when Confurence was the only 'furry' game in town and the cross-over was still pretty significant.

Goddamn I can't get over how wrong you are gnpg goddamn

[MazelTovCocktail]

And honestly, can we trust a group of people who can't police their own on the internet to police their own in a hotel?

[gnpg]

Have you knuckleheads forgotten that the whole 'furry' thing spawned from sci-fi cons to begin with?  Among the current generation of furfags, sure, sci-fi and furry cons are a "rare cross-over"; but go back 15 years to when Confurence was the only 'furry' game in town and the cross-over was still pretty significant.

Nope, haven't forgotten; I was talking about the current generation, so I agree with you.

Citation fucking needed. I can't think of any con-going furries I have met who don't also attend anime and/or sci-fi cons.
...
Yes, I realize that is a big load of anecdotal evidence, and probably biased by the fact that Comic-Con and Anime Expo are both less than an hour from my house.

I think we're both citing anecdotal evidence.  I've lived in two cities (one big, one small) and the majority of furries in both places weren't all that interested in attending other types of conventions, it was 20% at most.  They were least interested in SF, more for anime, and a little bit more if it was a generalist comic-con-mixed-with-other-stuff kind of event.  I've been to Worldcon a couple of times and the furry attendance is negligible - not surprising, as the registration fees are huge - but even most furries from the SF crowd of 15 years ago with a disposable income don't bother to go. I've never been able to attend the really big events, SDCC, DragonCon, so it's quite possible I'm simply in the wrong places at the wrong times.

Anyway, I'm quite willing to cede the point if other people are seeing something different. Don't mind being wrong! Sure it can feel like a slap to the face, but I like having my biases shoved back at me. Gets me thinking, makes me understand things from a different perspective, whether I agree with it or not.  And on Vivisector, it simply wouldn't be the place it is if a slap to the face or a kick to the nuts wasn't thrown in for good measure.

Oh god now I sound all happy-feely.  FUCK!

[Jim Demintia]

One thing that is worth pointing out is a lot of geek conventions are pretty thoroughly commercialized these days and are little more than industry conventions and/or platforms for launching new products. When your primary audience is businesses (say, industry press) sending employees to an event, yes, the price of almost everything connected to that goes through the roof.

At least that's what I see out of, say, ComicCon. I don't give a shit about comics or anything related but the non-stop press coverage on some tech/gaming outlets (which I don't give a shit about either but I get contaminated through Google News) led me to believe that. I'm sure being a host organism for industry is probably pretty financially advantageous.

Furries will never see that level of commercialism. Even cons that have explicitly tried to create an environment like that have really not been successful. Because while the not-furry convention world has seen increasing commercial participation, the furries have most likely seen a precipitous decline in their average income and education levels over the last 15-20 years. There's a lot of reasons for that.

But anyway, cross-attendance. I think it helps to figure out what cliques within furry you're talking about. I think classic geek-types probably do have some level of cross-pollination but most of the new arrivals- the ravers, the fresh-out-of-the-closet transplants from East Bumblefuck, PA, whatever, probably have comparatively little interest in other geek fandoms. That's not why they're "here". I don't really know how much things line up over age/generation and time, but it's worthwhile to remember that there are sub-groups within furry that have fundamentally different archetypical personalities.

[GreenReaper]

I tried going to a few sci-fi cons. Maybe it was just a few bad apples, but I didn't get anywhere near as much a kick out of them. They were full of panels with people rambling about topics that I didn't care about. Furry cons are more consistently fun for me.

(I did see a small pile of free comdoms outside the dance at one con, which I approved of. Furries could do with more safe sex!)

[Jim Demintia]

people rambling about topics that I didn't care about.

Wikipediacon

[GreenReaper]

Wikipediacon

I presented there once. Good times.

[greaseyote]

...
But anyway, cross-attendance. I think it helps to figure out what cliques within furry you're talking about. I think classic geek-types probably do have some level of cross-pollination but most of the new arrivals- the ravers, the fresh-out-of-the-closet transplants from East Bumblefuck, PA, whatever, probably have comparatively little interest in other geek fandoms. That's not why they're "here". I don't really know how much things line up over age/generation and time, but it's worthwhile to remember that there are sub-groups within furry that have fundamentally different archetypical personalities.

One thing to mention is that by "cross-attendance" I mean furries who would attend other cons, not furries who do so consistently. For example, going to comic-con would be a no-brainer for me as I live near San Diego (and, as mentioned, these sorts of cons have become much more focused on popular culture in general) but in the past few years it I haven't gone because it's become outrageously expensive, tickets have become hard to get and the event gridlocks the whole city making it kind of a hassle to show up for a day.

Maybe this is just a west-coast thing but there seems to be a lot of spillover from general geek culture at fur cons I've seen. I kind of feel like I'm one of a few furries that's into anthros and not anime. It's a sea of young guys who, although wearing tails, appear to be more interested in talking about vidya with each other (and using lots of 4chan memes)  than watching any of the fursuiters ambling around. Again, personal bias- except for a few fursuiting friends, I find hugging a fursuiter to be like hugging a wet dog so maybe I don't seek out that crowd.

As far as furries go, I would say that there are 3 basic groups in regards to cons (obviously there are further divisions and subgroups)- those who do not go to cons at all, because furry is purely fap material or because they are too socially-retarded or too poor, even for the furry fandom; those who have a passing interest and will maybe go to a fur meet or nearby con; and those who regularly travel many hours away to attend a con. The latter, IMO have the most cross-attendance because people who like the idea of cons tend to go to non-furry events as well.

[magus]

Don't think this article has been mentioned yet. Standard whitewashing from Kage, until they ask him straight up about the sex. That perception is all Confurence's fault, apparently, and he dragged it out of the gutter by drawing all the true furries away from the icky west coast. Which is a few grains of truth under a whole mountain of self-congratulatory PR. I don't think any of these views are new, but I haven't seen them put together quite this slickly before.

[Jim Demintia]

Don't think this article has been mentioned yet. Standard whitewashing from Kage, until they ask him straight up about the sex. That perception is all Confurence's fault, apparently, and he dragged it out of the gutter by drawing all the true furries away from the icky west coast. Which is a few grains of truth under a whole mountain of self-congratulatory PR. I don't think any of these views are new, but I haven't seen them put together quite this slickly before.

Well, they're making progress. It would be awesome if one day one of these alt-weeklies "straight up" asked him about Rogue. And videotaped it, also too.

[SuperBarrioBrothers]

Don't think this article has been mentioned yet. Standard whitewashing from Kage, until they ask him straight up about the sex. That perception is all Confurence's fault, apparently, and he dragged it out of the gutter by drawing all the true furries away from the icky west coast. Which is a few grains of truth under a whole mountain of self-congratulatory PR. I don't think any of these views are new, but I haven't seen them put together quite this slickly before.

Well, they're making progress. It would be awesome if one day one of these alt-weeklies "straight up" asked him about Rogue. And videotaped it, also too.

So it sounds like a small "press kit" about Kage's...extracurricular activities needs to go out to the local media about a week before Anthrocon then?  Just in the Usenet archive alone, there should be enough stuff to make a solid connection.

[rodox_video]

Words fail to express just how little of a shit the local press would give about the Rogue thing.

Kage isn't fooling anyone with his PR shit. Ask the average idiot frat kid what a furry is and he'll be all "hey aren't they those queers who do it in animal costumes?". The fact is, the bullshit that Conway and other big figures spin, no matter how phony, was long ago deemed a necessary (if transparent) cover story to maintain good relations with hotel management and avoid the closed-door policies that "mainstream" fetish parties are forced to implement.

Nobody actually believes it, but at the same time nobody really cares. Especially as long as they get paid. Too many people profit directly off of the "oh the sex is only a TEENY TINY BIT of what furry is all about" bullshit to let it drop, and it'll continue to be propped up until everyone finally gets fed up with it or something really, really nasty happens.

[Conan]

I know a member of the press who was assigned to cover Anthrocon this year. I have also spoken to one of the poor photojournalists who have been sent to AC in the past.

No one in the media believes the shit Kage spreads, and the reporters assigned to cover it don't care enough to dig deeper or say otherwise because they probably lost the straw poll or were in the bathroom during the editorial meeting or they're an intern. They go, they listen to his BS, they might interview some of the "weird" people because they know that will bring in internet viewers. Then they'll go back to work, throw the package together, and laugh with their coworkers about how weird the convention was. There's also a good chance they were told how to cover it, something like "Talk about all the money it brings to local businesses" or "Get us something fun we can put on before the weather".

"Local Furry Convention Chairman Has Weird Fetish" does not work well before the weather.

[rodox_video]

Exactly. Furry is so difficult to describe that a proper explanation that fits into the Kitten Report slot would look like a total mess, AND there's absolutely no incentive to dig that deep.

[greaseyote]

Furry is so far from most people's radar that even the hipster readers of an alt.newspaper wouldn't be interested in the fandom's juicy drama.

The press only mentions fur cons because hordes of unwashed beardos descend on the city and people want to know WTF is going on. 

I don't understand why so many furries get so hung up on their public image save for the few that have actually made a career or charity work out of the fandom. It's 2011 folks, the inhabitants of a major city aren't going to care that a bunch of nerds have gay sex in a hotel room, sometimes wearing animal costumes.

I don't even why understand furries and sex is even newsworthy to begin with. We're talking about a group of people who are largely (but not entirely) in their late teens/early 20s. We're talking about the same age group that you see in all the sorority/fraternity or Spring Break sexcapades and all the "Girls Gone Wild" stuff. Nobody seems to care about that. So, promiscuity among spolied college kids is considered normal, but when it's a bunch of gay nerds doing it, somehow it's shocking??? It's slutty behavior, sure, but not exactly unexpected considering the demographic involved.

[ProvincialTwit]

The reason furries get so hung up on public image is because so many of them simply CANNOT separate their 'furry identity' from, well, anything.  It's so ingrained into the entirety of their being that everything they do, or touch, or see, because 'furryized'.

Including, of course, any semblance of a professional life.  They aren't just an employee, they're a ~furry employee~.

Granted if you're just a wage slave flipping burgers or doing low-level tech support then it's unlikely your employer is going to give two fucks unless the dress code explicitly forbids fake ears and tails, or you get caught looking at porn on the clock.  But if you're in any sort of higher-powered position, that inability to separate your 'furry self' from your 'professional self' can become a liability, not just to you but to your employer.  In that case...

ahaha who am i kidding furries can't get high-powered positions