Vivisector
Daggers and Spears and Songs => Scandal! => Topic started by: rodox_video on February 03, 2010, 01:40:03 am
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PRAWST, someone who was always kind of a butthole, has now been elevated to martyr status for pissing off Samuel "Uncle Kage" Conway, the AnthroCon supreme leader.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1185716/
It seems that he posted something to YouTube that seriously pissed Conway off. This resulted in a lifetime ban from the event.
Pretty much business as usual for AC, but it's been said that PRAWST let slip some things to a reporter that would have been severely damaging to the convention. (As you may already know, AC has always been notoriously touchy about dealing with the media.) Given that Conway has a closet full of skeletons roughly the size of those hangars used to house 1930s-era dirigibles, it's anyone's guess as to what PRAWST might have told the reporter that caused the ban.
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God, I've done things that could be considered much more "damaging" to the fandom (I gave Fchan over to Nadia, for one), and I don't get banned from major conventions.
Man, what crawled up Kage's ass and died?
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Man, what crawled up Kage's ass and died?
Not sure but betting it came out of 2's cock
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2DSc8GHl5g&feature=related
This is interesting. He talks at length about not acting like you're hiding something, then around the third part swings right around into how YOU can help him hide things from the cameras.
It also turns out that whatever PRAWST said to the press is nothing that wasn't already known to any SA/PoE user since 2001, which just makes the whole thing more puzzling.
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The old man loves to make examples of people, but with that said the lack of a twenty paragraph explanation as to why Prawst is worse than Hitler or something is pretty puzzling. We're not getting the whole story by a longshot.
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Man, what crawled up Kage's ass and died?
Not sure but betting it came out of 2's cock
Do we make fun of 2 the Ranting Gryphon here too?
Because I totally have some jokes chambered up about how he needs to get back on the meds
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If we don't already have a 2 megathread, you have my blessing to start one.
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If we don't already have a 2 megathread, you have my blessing to start one.
Thanks, but I'll pass. I really wouldn't know where to begin, you see.
Maybe one of you more capable gentlemen could do it and I will then make with the 2 funny.
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Drunk or not, Kage's latest thing is that he has been invited to Eurofurence, however his friend 2 the gryphon doesn't have any money, so Kage is begging for cash to pay for him:
No Ranting Grypon at EF16??
My friend and colleague "2, the Ranting Gryphon" is short on cash this year and has told me that he cannot afford to make it to Eurofurence this year.
I won't have that! I am not capable of being funny without him there to give me a boost. :( I am therefor hoping that some members of the EF community might be willing to help out with a fund that I have started, the "Get 2 to Eurofurence 16 or Everyone Will Be Sad" fund.
If you would like to help bring this extraordinary performer back to Eurofurence, please consider a donation via PayPal (yes, I know they've been naughty to other folks, but they would not dare mess with me) to samuel_conway@yahoo.com. Please mark it specifically for the Ranting Gryphon fund.
We're going to need about EUR 1200 it seems. That's quite a bit, I know, but think about what will happen if '2' is not able to attend. There at the hotel you will see poor, old Onkel Kage, sitting miserably in a corner with tears in his eyes. You wouldn't want that, would you? So any small donation will do -- as will any large ones if you feel so inclined. NO ALCOHOL WILL BE PURCHASED WITH THESE FUNDS! Every bit will be used for air fare for the gryphon. Anything in excess (or if we have a shortfall, then all of it) will be turned over to the Emmrich Sanctuary on behalf of the Eurofurence Community.
Remember, my job at Eurofurence is to make you laugh. Think of how difficult that will be for me without my partner-in-comedy!
http://community.livejournal.com/eurofurence/65446.html
People don't seem to be particularly responsive to him and the level of entitlement displayed is enormous:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/5m07wk.jpg)
http://community.livejournal.com/eurofurence/65446.html?thread=420262#t420262
Princess Piche willing to incur large credit card debts to buy popularity for his pet convention:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/s5kdv6.jpg)
http://community.livejournal.com/eurofurence/65446.html?thread=431526#t431526
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Wow, that's pretty blatant panhandling. No special commission, no auction, just GIEB MONIES PLOX. Then reiterating nothing 'personal' will be bought with it, just hefty airfare to get 2's broke ass to a con meant to be costly. Does 2 even have a job apart from "Buy my furry stuff!". He keeps repeating he's a professional comedian, but I have a feeling he's still just collecting the dole for his back.
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"When they return as much to the Fandom..."
Ahahahahaha. Yes, because looking like a huge douche and making a lame podcast full of profanity are such important contributions to your little fetish subculture.
Conway's got a Ph.D., doesn't he? Why doesn't HE foot the bill for his little butt buddy? Oh right I guess pouring piss samples into centrifuges doesn't pay that well...
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2 seems to be a good speaker, I'll give him that. Dude needs to work on having funny jokes instead of just relying on the fandom 'agreeing with him'. I've laughed at furries who are a lot more stupid, so maybe it's a compliment that nothing 2 says is funny?
Why don't they just hire a local comedian for the convention? A cheaper and more entertaining solution.
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Does 2 even have a job apart from "Buy my furry stuff!". He keeps repeating he's a professional comedian, but I have a feeling he's still just collecting the dole for his back.
You are correct. The nutshell is that he's a professional leach; the federal government foots the lion's share of his living expenses while the furry fandom pays for his luxuries. There is no 'comedy gig' other than going to furry conventions and extorting them.
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2 seems to be a good speaker, I'll give him that. Dude needs to work on having funny jokes instead of just relying on the fandom 'agreeing with him'.
Ah, "clapter". Telling jokes that are intended to be applauded rather than laughed at. Well, hell, John Stewart and Stephen Colbert have been elevated to living paragons by catering to clapter, so 2 has clearly just set his sights much, much lower to try and become The Furry Report.
Why don't they just hire a local comedian for the convention? A cheaper and more entertaining solution.
Because obviously Kage has a hardon for 2. The clapter makes him feel all funny inside.
Gotta hand it to Dragoneer, though. At least when it came to getting the jabbering loser to the convention he wanted him at, he footed the bill himself, instead of relying on the "furry community" that had been sooooooooo enriched by 2 to "give back".
So what exactly has 2 done for the community? All the things he's done have basically been for self-enrichment, to get popular or get paid. Those are generally not considered "giving". Perhaps he's somehow furthered furry's positive relationship with the "muggles"? Even assuming that a mohawked, Spider Jerusalem-wannabe rant-comedian were the sort of person likely to be adored by the general public, I'm unaware of any extensive PR campaign 2 has waged on furry's behalf. In fact, if anything, anyone exposed to his rants would instead be exposed to the bad parts as much as actually... y'know, being exposed directly.
In that way, 2 is something like a guy wandering through the streets shouting graphic descriptions of the hardcore BDSM sex he saw his neighbors having through their window, and how not everyone who likes being done up the butt by their lady-friend like many of his roommates do also enjoys wearing a gimp mask and getting spanked because those are just twisted. All this has succeeded in doing is 1) informing more people of his friends' proclivities and 2) offending people because his yammering about it was actually more public and more offensive than the act that set him off.
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Man, it has actually been quite a while since furries got me thinking "there's a sitcom in this somewhere".
EDIT:
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6151/kagechange.png)
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I seem to remember Dragoneer pays for FA's hosting on his credit card too...so what the hell's going to happen to FA and FAU when he can't make his payments anymore? Credit cards, especially for someone like Dragoneer--who is young(ish), has a spotty employment history, and probably not a lot of paid off loans in his history--are a ticking time bomb. Especially when you're running however many thousands of dollars per month through them that he does.
I'm sorry, but people who use credit cards like that are fucking retarded. I'd say I hope he's enjoying the 3 cents off per gallon of gas or whatever piddly bits of nothing he's getting out of it, but I don't think he's even smart enough to get that kind of credit card.
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I heard about this recently, and it does not surprise me one bit. I mean, I don't think there is any low Kage will not sink to - from what I have heard (correct me if this is wrong), Kage attempted to manipulate blacks into going after those trolls doing that tongue-in-cheek "protest" of Anthrocon in 2007; he basically said that the trolls were protesting against black people instead of just trying to piss some furries off.
I also find it ironic as all hell that Kage can't spot some of his own money for "2" to go over there. One would think that he would have a good deal of money with a Ph.D and the fact that he can put together such conventions on a yearly basis.
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I also find it ironic as all hell that Kage can't spot some of his own money for "2" to go over there. One would think that he would have a good deal of money with a Ph.D and the fact that he can put together such conventions on a yearly basis.
Not ironic at all. See my post above - Conway's fancy-shmancy Ph.D. has netted him nothing more than a low-paying grunt work lab job.
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I also find it ironic as all hell that Kage can't spot some of his own money for "2" to go over there. One would think that he would have a good deal of money with a Ph.D and the fact that he can put together such conventions on a yearly basis.
Not ironic at all. See my post above - Conway's fancy-shmancy Ph.D. has netted him nothing more than a low-paying grunt work lab job.
I see. I was mistaken in thinking that the above was a hyperbolic remark. Normally, I would cut someone slack due to the effects of the recession that broke out in December of 2007, but I can't help but think that social ineptitude on Kage's behalf landed him in such a job (and I feel sorry for any of his co-workers for having to put up with him).
You are correct. The nutshell is that he's a professional leach; the federal government foots the lion's share of his living expenses while the furry fandom pays for his luxuries. There is no 'comedy gig' other than going to furry conventions and extorting them.
I take it that it is not fortuitous that I have seen other furries asking for money for various things (computers, trips, etc.) from other furries. Hell, I even heard that some furry tried launching a lawsuit (more like lawlsuit in this case) to acquire the rights to some game (Battletech, I think) awhile back.
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Not quite sure where ProvincialTwit gets his information. Kage's LinkedIn profile (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/samuel-conway/3/798/857) is fairly clear - he works for West Pharmaceutical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pharmaceutical_Services), analyzing products to ensure they don't contain leachable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaching_%28chemical_science%29) components (you generally don't want your vial mixing with whatever's in it).
Last I checked, the average Principal Chemist earned more than I did. Not much more, but still. Perhaps they pay danger money, given the circumstances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pharmaceutical_Services_explosion).
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ProvincialTwit and GreenReaper are both probably right—unless he's managing or heading his team, he probably *is* doing grunt work, but at the same time most companies will pay a premium for advanced degrees, especially in pharmaceuticals where they're still, you know, making money.
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I sniffed around a bit, and it seems that a principal chemist (http://www.jobs-salary.com/principal-chemist-salary.htm) makes a decent amount of money even on the lower end of the pay scale. I don't see why Kage could not spare something even at the low end of US $55K. Unless he is somehow in a less common position when he is making something far lower than the average range, I guess. But still, that seems unlikely.
Hell, even the low end of that job pays $15K more than I am currently making, yet even I would be in a better position to spare some cash here or there.
Does Kage turn a profit on Anthrocon? He is listed as a CEO of "Anthrocon, Inc." and they do set ambitious targets for fundraising (I heard that they tried to raise US $250K for animals or something during Anthrocon). Not to mention people with fursuits are most likely well off in some cases if they can shell out thousands for such things. Or perhaps Kage is simply fiscally irresponsible due to a lack of intelligence.
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$250,000 seems like a high number. If that's really the level of fundraising they're capable of, I'd be interested to know the breakdown of their donations. It's probably on some PA state government website, seeing as they're 501(c)(3).
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$250,000 seems like a high number. If that's really the level of fundraising they're capable of, I'd be interested to know the breakdown of their donations. It's probably on some PA state government website, seeing as they're 501(c)(3).
It looks like I heard things incorrectly. (http://www.anthrocon.org/node/5649)It turns out that Anthrocon was simply trying to get votes together so some animal charity could end up getting $250K from some contest. Nevertheless, I still do wonder just how much money Anthrocon, Inc. happens to take in, especially considering that fursuiters tend to be well off and fly in from all over the world to attend Anthrocon in the first place.
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Depends. As far as I know, the majority of conventions are not money-making operations. Even the big ones can lose more than they gain fairly easily. If you take the generous view of that, the organizers lose money on it because they want others to enjoy what they have created. The less-generous is that they consider it money well spent for so much attention, adoration, and relative power.
Of course I also imagine that a furry convention's overhead is probably less than that of an anime convention, the only sort that I have even a little tiny bit insight into the workings of. If a furry convention wants a prominent fandom guest, the most they might have to do is offer to pay hotel fare and maybe travel expenses. An anime convention wants a prominent guest, they have to pay for a better hotel fare, better travel expenses (quite possibly from Japan), and then throw an extra something-something on top of that, most likely. Especially since a lot of the bigger conventions have started bringing in J-pop bands.
Anyway. It's possible that it pulls in a decent profit, but it's not guaranteed. I'm betting the payments to the hotel eat up a ton of money alone. Still, not being able to shell out for a super-saver fare or something just because you wanted your buddy to come with you is pretty lame.
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The only furry cons I've heard of with live music (a huge expense all things considered) are FAU and FC, much of which for both is volunteer, and certainly not continuous.
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Anthrocon is a non-profit...at least according to the IRS. Which means their financial records are public domain. If one was to write their treasurer asking for the records, and their fail to provide them; they get fined.
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Don't they have to file disclosure statements with their state government? Seems like these sorts of things would probably be online.
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Anthrocon is a non-profit...at least according to the IRS. Which means their financial records are public domain. If one was to write their treasurer asking for the records, and their fail to provide them; they get fined.
I suppose I could try to sniff this out if I have more spare time. But assuming this is true, I still find it laughable that some guy making at least US $55K per year (more than the average person) can't manage to spot some cash for his little friend. I guess when it comes to Kage, it is all about helping one's "fellow furries" until he actually has to help a "fellow furry" himself. The guy just confirms the negative aspects of a lot of furries with his very actions.
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I think you're missing the whole point of why this is so ridiculous.
Forget what he does or doesn't earn. Forget whether or not AC turns a profit and/or whether he's pocketing any of that money. Conway not fronting the cash himself is not the story here; that's not why this is so absurd nor why it deserves to be posted in this thread.
The point is that Conway has such an inflated sense of self-importance, and has spent so long cooped up in the little cult of personality he's manufactured over the last decade, that he outright expects and demands that any mere peasant who dares call themselves a furry should bow down and cater to his every whim. In most cases, his 'whims' involve the plebs parting with as much of their cash as he can extract (reg fees, buying lots of crap from artists, covering his food/drinks, paying his way to various other cons), and still keep them coming year after year. The difference is, all those things in parens back there have some sort of perceived value to the rubes coughing up the cash; while the latter two seem intangible, they still serve as 'bragging rights' for the idiots involved, and thus, 'perceived value'.
What is special about this particular 'whim' of Conway's is that there is no value, tangible or perceived, for anyone but him and his butt buddy 2. Not even furries are stupid enough to somehow convince themselves that throwing away what little extra cash they may have on this gives them any sort of bragging rights or indeed any benefit whatsoever. Conway either cannot contribute (which I suspect), or doesn't feel like contributing, and either way just expects the money to come flying in simply because the request is coming from HIM.
That is why it is funny, and ridiculous, and belongs in this thread. The guy's got his head so far up his ass from the pressure of his own unwarranted self-importance, that he expects all the lesser faggots throw money at him on demand, so he can hang out with his ranting douche buddy at a convention. Good game next fucking map sir.
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Hey, come on now. The determination of whether Kage could have conceivably fronted the money himself is a determining factor in how much of a delusional ass he is. That he is a delusional ass with entitlement issues isn't something that is in question, but if we just noted it and left it as it was, Vivisector would have like one comment a week as opposed to the bustling five or seven there is now!
If Kage is just getting by and expected other people to foot 2's bill, then yes, he is a delusional, entitled twat who's out of touch with reality. If Kage actually had the money to bring 2 along, but rather than spending it chose to demand cash from the whole of furry, then he is not only a delusional twat who's out of touch with reality, he's also a cheapskate asshole who's truly got an epic entitlement complex.
It's sort of the difference between whether Hugh Hefner has five girlfriends, or whether he has five girlfriends and secret cameras in their rooms. One makes him a horny old man, the other makes him a dirty old pervert. That he's popping viagra like Hollywood pops vicadin is not in question, it's just a matter of degree.
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Depends. As far as I know, the majority of conventions are not money-making operations. Even the big ones can lose more than they gain fairly easily.
Thankfully, the days of furry conventions hemorrhaging money and forcing organizers to the brink of bankruptcy (http://www.polarden.org/cf-archive/confurence/documents/CF2003GoodbyeFromTheChairman.swf) mostly died with ConFurence. I'd rather have stable, financially sound events than rely on that level of generosity.
Don't they have to file disclosure statements with their state government? Seems like these sorts of things would probably be online.
Federal government; state typically only requires director info. Not only are they online, they've been summarized on WikiFur for the last four years - along with the other cons earning enough to file Form 990 (http://www.npccny.org/Form_990/990.htm)[-EZ]. The latest figures are from 2009 (http://wikifur.com/Anthrocon_2009#Financials), though arguably 2008 (http://wikifur.com/Anthrocon_2008#Financials) is more representative since they changed the fiscal year in '09. See linked sources for full details.
AC appears fiscally well-managed. Expenses are less than $60/person (http://www.anthrocon.org/node/4794#comment-38971) ($56.58 for 2009). Pretty damn good considering AC pays for a significant chunk of a convention center in the middle of a union city.
As for 2; while I'm sure Kage enjoys 2 being there, the claim that others also benefit from his presence has merit. If donations are required for 2 to attend, equity suggests all those who benefit should contribute.
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As for 2; while I'm sure Kage enjoys 2 being there, the claim that others also benefit from his presence has merit. If donations are required for 2 to attend, equity suggests all those who benefit should contribute.
While the claim that others benefit from 2's presence may have some merit, that merit only really seems to exist in Conway's mind. And while I'm sure his LJ (or wherever that was) post about how he'll be all sad and lonely without his little butt buddy along for the ride was at least partially made in jest, he -is- a furry after all, and there's probably more than a small grain of truth to it. I see the whole thing as a thinly veiled threat/demand - essentially, "cough up your money so I can drag 2 along, or I'll be all pissy and whiny at the con because I didn't get my way."
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I have experience in running smaller anime cons and while AC is the largest furry con it's actually mid sized at best in comparison to anime cons. Anime North in Canada does like 15 000, Anime Expo is the largest in this US with 44 000 people in 2009. These large cons absolutely make profit, but it's a massive ammount of effort and greatly dependant on free labor. Even though the profitable cons make lots of money, the ratio of work vs profit that someone could personally take in from it without depleating it's resources is aweful. You could easily make more money for less work working at McDonalds for the year. The fan run convention is just that, fan run, it's a hobby and in some cases a hobby that turned into a five digit attendance monster, but still just a hobby. Only an idiot would start up a convention expecting it to be a turn key cash cow.
Which, there actually is such a guy in my city. Convinced he could make $10 000 of profits in the first on a convention in a city of 500 000 people. It was to be an an extension of his sound and lighting company he owned, would keep some profits, it'd be a huge boost to him he said. I can't tell you exactly how well the convention is going and I can't tell you how well his sound and lighting company is going... But I can tell you that he's also delivering for Pizza Hut now.
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Only an idiot would start up a convention expecting it to be a turn key cash cow.
At the risk of dragging this thread even farther off topic, that's pretty much why Conifur was formed and part of why it subsequently died.
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At the risk of dragging this thread even farther off topic, that's pretty much why Conifur was formed and part of why it subsequently died.
Maybe we need a new thread for this, but I remember a few years ago AlohaWolf (of Califur fame) wanted to create a new convention (arbitrarily deciding on Las Vegas as the location, without consulting the locals) that sounded to me to basically be an attempt to bring the Lexus-Toyota model to furry conventions—the price of admission was to be a selling point in itself. They would limit it to 21+, and basically the attendance fee would be something like $400, to keep out the riff-raff (!). Of course, the whole idea pretty much lived and died in one flame-thread on some local furry board, where he was roasted basically for being a money-grubbing carpetbagger (which he totally is, btw), but yeah...the idea of creating a con for personal enrichment has been tried before.
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and basically the attendance fee would be something like $400, to keep out the riff-raff (!).
Is anyone vaguely reminded of Calvin steadily increasing the prices of his lemonade because he had no buyers...?
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Kage = Rogue?
Here's a google cache to look at before it disappears from the tubes:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2c1J1LYejGYJ:wys.mirror.henriwatson.com/forums/printthread.php
So, does Samuel "My con is good wholesome family fun" Conway really have a not-so-secret macrogore fetish? One in which he "murders, massacres and masturbates on the corpses of people he's killed and crushed en masse"? Who'd have thunk it.
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Kage = Rogue?
What are you like new to the fandom? It's an obvious open secret. Their websites are in the same layout, linking to each other with 'my friend the megawolf/chemist' language. He even is quite proud to have named his fetish; 'Macrophilia". I seem to recall him, posting as Rogue, using "Dr. Conway" as a reference for some blog sounding discussion on Macrophilia to make it sound legit.
Not to mention if you find old enough Cougr porn of Rogue it says 'Character(c) S. Conway' right on it. It seems a very open secret/obvious alt until he took over AC.
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http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1739319/
first world problems itt
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http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1739319/
first world problems itt
excuse me I believe this is a drunken airplane trip not a drunken power trip
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Vivisector; 2 blogs, we report!
Kage totally gets off on being being told he's selfless. He rationalized his generosity as an expression of guilt over a fetish that's basically 9/11 in giant wolf form. However, he used to have a livejournal account, in character as Rogue where he basically used LJ cuts like "I found a family in distress so I ate them" and then goes on to "...no I actually called a tow for them, helped them learn English and midwived their first born son." stuff just for the comment stoking. When he's not doing that for himself, his friends do it.
I don't know what's worse, being a narcissist while generous, or doing so while convincing yourself you're doing out of a guilt trip.
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http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1739319/
first world problems itt
It seems that this journal has provoked a reponse from Dragoneer which may prove embarassing for Kage and 2.
On furrydrama_2, an entry was made about that journal. Princess Piche turned up to huff and puff on it, since he dislikes Kage. During the course of this, he revealed the alledged reasons for his hate for Kage (And Giza too, of course, we must remember that this is Dragoneer's side of the story):
Giza was angry at me because I called him out for cheating on Phil da Feline. Way back when, Giza and Phil da Feline were dating. Phil walked in on Giza sucking another guy's dick, they got into huge drama, fights ensued. A while later, they got back together... and at MFF, same shit happened together.
One day Phil came over to my place, crying, claiming Giza tried to take advantage of him... and I went ballistic. I started openly called Giza out via my LiveJournal for cheating on Phil, lying and being a general douchebag. I wasn't very mature about it, but given what happened... I didn't really care. We had a huge drama war, and Giza eventually went to Kage to ask Kage to "fix" his problem. Namely, get rid of me
So Kage did.
Kage defended Giza (and blindly at that), refused to even hear my side of the story, and Kage kept saying if he wanted to cheat on Phil then that was Giza's right. And he defended that. I called shenanigans, but Kage had already made up his mind before he even spoke to me. Because I stood up to Kage, I got "promoted" from convention operations to "sales guy" for the artist's alley. So I left. Basically, they knew I'd do that... and I have no regrets about it. I wasn't thrown off AC (and I have several FA staffers who will back me up on this), but if they want to look at that way then I guess by demoting me they kinda did. In the end, Kage defended Giza's right to cheat on Phil, and I left Anthrocon and ended up going to Fur Affinity. Giza still takes pot-shots at me every once and a while. He does not seem to have the ability to let bygones be bygones. Some of my friends on Anthrocon's staff send me logs and shit when he goes berserk over it. I posted a journal two years later saying I wasn't going to Anthrocon, I was bailing on the con... and Kage took that as me outright attacking on AC. For... some reason. Thing was: I was at risk of losing my apartment due to financial problems at the time (animators didn't get paid a lot) and couldn't afford the con. I put life ahead of furry. The last thing Kage ever said to me was "Welcome to my shitlist, asshole." Why? Because in that same journal some people called Anthrocon "Kagecon" in my LiveJournal.
And he detonated on me. This had nothing to do with Growly at all. Kage hasn't spoken to me since 2005. Even when we had stood in line next to each other for an hour to go to MFF in 2006, he wouldn't speak to me. Or even acknowledge I was there. It was cute.
http://community.livejournal.com/furrydrama_2/206125.html?thread=17044525#t17044525
Now, someone made a comment:
http://community.livejournal.com/furrydrama_2/206125.html?thread=17016621#t17016621
saying that they had lost their respect for 2 and Kage in the Jibba AID's drama of 2 years back: Jibba, a friend of 2's, was accused of knowingly spreading aids at a convention, the drama erupted on FA. Kage and 2 backed Jibba implicitly, saying he didn't have AIDS and some people accusing Jibba were permabanned. As 2 mentioned in a comment on one of his recent journals:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1738047/#cid:14546316
It turns out Jibba does have AIDS (However that he knowingly spread it is still denied). Dragoneer replied to the FD_2 comment, these are the relevant comments from the thread:
But people got banned from FA over the Jibba drama. I went to 2 and others at the time to ask, and they said nope, he didn't. I ask all parties involved. But Jibba did have HIV, and all the drama and defenses were for naught.
2 and Jibba say the initial tests did come back negative, but HIV tests are 99.9% accurate if you have it. So if he infecting people the tests should have shown it, unless Jibba was that percent of a percent that doesn't show. And for that many months? Eh.
I was, but if you're to the point of infecting others it generally DOES show. I called and asked the local clinic. I don't know what to believe.
But as I told you, they should have cone out and updated people on it. They fought tooth and nail to tell everybody how WRONG they were, people got banned... but when they found out the truth... where was their voice then?
They had no problem accusing others, but when they were wrong over something so gravely serious....
And exactly what are we supposed to tell the people who were banned on 2's word?
"Sorry you got perma-banned. Nobody ever told us the real story."
Short of putting the blame on 2 and Jibba for not coming out with the truth, which I don't want to do... there's not.
Leave them banned. Or unban them, tell them what happened. Because if we just unban them with "you're un-permabanned. Sorry!" they're gonna wanna know why. And just saying "we were given the wrong information" When they know who the information came from...
It's a very fucked up position to be in.
I feel like I've failed as an admin over this. Falsely banning people is like one of my single greatest fears... and here it is.
In response to someone asking if Kage/2/Jibba were lying:
They weren't lying. They were just telling the truth based on what they knew at the time. But, when they found out the REAL truth, they never bothered to correct themselves or inform anybody.
Just kept it hidden
So Dragoneer ended up saying he was going to investigate the whole two year old drama very thoroughly. He posted this journal on his FA account about it:
Taking admin action on issues is never an easy thing. Trust me when I say that the last thing you ever want to do is make a mistake or wrongful ban. To me, that's one of the worst things an admin could ever do.
That said, I always try to take the time to fully investigate the issues and make fully informed decisions based on the evidence at hand. And sometimes... that evidence changes.
So, with that, I will be open:
A particular indecent on FA occurred roughly two years ago involving Jibba, and we investigated the hell out of it. Inquired. Poked. Prodded. Got information from a variety of sources, and snooped for all information from those involved. We were given one set of information which, at the time, was accurate. That set of information, from a particularly credible source, was investigated and acted upon.
Over time... that source (and all sources involved) learned of a different outcome on their side. We were never informed of the different information which had arisen from this issue, and up until a week ago were operating based on the original knowledge we had at hand.
We know the entire story now.
Things changed.
However, several actions on FA's staff were (myself included) were made based on the original knowledge we had at the time. Because of this new information we've learned, I am getting database dumps of all notes and tickets involving the users in question, and I will be personally re-investigating any and all bans and admins actions made based on the circumstances of these actions.
I won't say that the actions we took weren't warranted. Maybe they all were. Maybe none were. But I am going back to re-investigate the issues, and re-examine the circumstances behind each action. Anybody found to have had action taken against them (so long as they were in the right)based on this issue will have said actions reversed.
Is this an issue for the site? Not entirely, but I want to be open all the same, because these issues are serious to me. Which is why I post this journal. We owe it to the community to investigate any issue of such nature, and be honest and fair.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1746996/
Jibba is friends with 2, 2 is friends with Kage. Both 2 and Kage backed up Jibba during the AIDS drama. By making a big public song and dance about this issue Dragoneer can get back at the person he hates: Kage, embarrassing him for his support for Jibba and silence on the matter after it was discovered Jibba really did have AIDS, and he can receive empty kudos for yet again confessing to failure and supposedly being open and apologetic about it. Posturing and preening all the way.
Edit:
further adding to my impression that it's all posturing and trying to embarass Kage/Anthrocon/etc Dragoneer edited his journal to say that no one will be unbanned:
EDIT: After several hundred notes, comments some trouble tickets, I have verified all bans were justified, but there were some issues. Several notes were sent out to users who had actions taken against them.
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Is there just some option where you don't pick a side, but hope for the worst for everyone involved? Cause that's pretty much how I feel regarding the rivalry between Dragoneer and Kage's crowd.
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In regards to whole AIDS thing, you can point to this wonderful federal study (http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20100923/1-in-5-gay-bi-men-have-hiv-nearly-half-dont-know?src=RSS_PUBLIC) that 1 in 5 gay men in 21 cities hardest hit by AIDS are HIV positive. :)
Wonder if Jibba is from any of those places?
Also: 63% of the HIV-positive men age 18-29 were unaware of their infection. <--- this fits right into the age group for furries ;D
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Is there just some option where you don't pick a side, but hope for the worst for everyone involved?
That's pretty much the option I'm going with.
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I take it that it is not fortuitous that I have seen other furries asking for money for various things (computers, trips, etc.) from other furries. Hell, I even heard that some furry tried launching a lawsuit (more like lawlsuit in this case) to acquire the rights to some game (Battletech, I think) awhile back.
Not meaning to do threadmancy here, but that would be http://www.furaffinity.net/user/calbeck/ thats since been sorted out, lot of the head guys at CBT really had a wtf moment when he started that.
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What is it about unicorn furries and creeping schizophrenia?
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God I wish I would have saved the logs for this because if I did it would have been gold.
Anyway, lets set the wayback machine to 2010. I didn't go to Anthrocon that year because well.. letsee. I didn't have a job at the time and I also have a house (which some furries don't have). And I also had this thing called responsibility (aka I can't drop everything to go to a con because I have a house, a mate and a dog).
But I digress. What had happened is I heard some horror stories coming out of AC when people were telling me about the Dorsai. Now for those that don't know the Dorsai is a security staff that attends various conventions and provides security. Now are they a professionally trained staff like FLARE or something along that lines?
To my knowledge they're not. In fact they go ahead and do some of the most boneheaded things that I have seen. An example I am at AC 2007 for the first time and my mate and myself are sitting on this deck in the summer heat, in fursuits, waiting to have our picture taken. My mate says he's having problems breathing and he has to take his head off. He does so and gets barked at by a Dorsai to put it back on and HE gets barked at by KP (who's on staff) telling him I don't need someone going to the hospital because he can't breathe.. let him leave his head off!
So after that incident I decided to do a bit of fact finding on the Dorsai and got horror stories abounds. A friend of mine WAS with them and quit and told me why (basically he was tired of all the BS that they were doing and they were made out to be bullies instead of security staff).
So 2010 AC came and went and I heard problems from a few friends of mine and I snapped. I wrote a long letter saying that they need to get their shit together. I also posted said letter to my LJ and FA account and people were coming out in droves AGREEING with me. I was gaining support and all this and this is where it all went south (and yes you can bash on me for this.. :/)
I log into furrymuck like I usually do. And I immediately start getting pages from Kage (god I wish I had the logs for this) saying the first thing "you ought to be ashamed of yourself." And I asked him what I meant and he immediately starts going into this tirade of me attacking Anthrocon and it's staff and blah blah blah and all this other bullshit.
I also get pages from Xydexx (part of AC staff) and he's convincing me what Kage is trying to force me to do which was delete the journals and print a retraction. At one point Kage doesn't ask.. he DEMANDS my phone number. I tell him "Are you going to call me to yell at me?" and he keeps insisting me for my number and I basically told him "No. Fuck you. You're not getting my number!" But even tho Kage was yelling at me Xydexx was being nice to me and eventually I caved in and did what they asked.
Also didn't mention this just yet but I posted a bit of a journal that Firestorm Six posted about how his friend had a run in the Dorsai. Kage found this guys number and raked him over the coals for god knows how long.
But I was bitter and I had to tell him off. So this WAS the log I kept:
page kagemushi = It saddens me but it's come to this. We are done, Kage.
You page, "It saddens me but it's come to this. We are done, Kage." to Kagemushi.
Kagemushi pages, "As you wish." to you.
Somewhere on the muck, Thunder has connected.
page =No, it's not my wish. You just won't listen to a word i've said. I tried to make points and it either has you flying off the handle and going after friends of mine or you just dismissing it as I am crazy or emo or something else. Mark my words, kage. The Dorsai HAVE to be policed and if they're remained unchecked someone is going to get hurt.. or WORSE.
You page, "No, it's not my wish. You just won't listen to a word i've said. I tried to make points and it either has you flying off the handle and going after friends of mine or you just dismissing it as I am crazy or emo or something else. Mark my words, kage. The Dorsai HAVE to be policed and if they're remained unchecked someone is going to get hurt.. or WORSE." to Kagemushi.
Kagemushi pages, "and I am going to tell you this just once. The Dorsai are not out of control. The Dorsai do not need to be reined in. The Dorsai are not a threat to anyone. They've been doing security since before you were born and they are very good at what they do. Because you choose to listen to drama-whores who have an axe to grind (no doubt because they were caught doing something wrong and got their wrists slapped) and not to me is your problem, not mine. I won't have you running around talking shit about my staff when you were not even at the damned convention. Get your facts straight, stop being a drama-monger, and consider for a quarter of a second that there's enough tension in the world without you creating more where it shouldn't exist." to you.
page kagemushi = They've been doing convention security since 1969? I hardly fucking doubt that. That's first of all. SECOND of all there have been parts that I have witnessed that they have put their hands on people for doing things that are minor infractions (eg. riding a elevator from the 3rd floor to the 1st floor lobby). Also, the dorsai just don't do AC.. they're not JUST AC staff they run alot of other conventions and other events and I have heard many a time where some of the staff have overstepped their bounds. I am not trying to bring anything or start shit. I don't give a damn about you, AC or the Dorsai. I DO care about the people that go and want those people to have a safe and fun time.
Idle message for Kagemushi: Idle!
You page, "They've been doing convention security since 1969? I hardly fucking doubt that. That's first of all. SECOND of all there have been parts that I have witnessed that they have put their hands on people for doing things that are minor infractions (eg. riding a elevator from the 3rd floor to the 1st floor lobby). Also, the dorsai just don't do AC.. they're not JUST AC staff they run alot of other conventions and other events and I have heard many a time where some of the staff have overstepped their bounds. I am not trying to bring anything or start shit. I don't give a damn about you, AC or the Dorsai. I DO care about the people that go and want those people to have a safe and fun time." to Kagemushi.
page kagemushi = But y'know what? Yer right. this is your con and everything else and I shouldn't go around posting stuff without my facts straight. And I haven't.. I pulled everything as you can see and I won't say another word about Anthrocon for the rest of my days on this earth. But I do say this, Kage. I have been nice about this and I have taken your abuse and harsh words.. and have done so up to a point. The reason I posted a retraction btw is because Xydexx ASKED me and didn't yell at me or threaten me. That was the way to go.. not the way you went.
Idle message for Kagemushi: Idle!
You page, "But y'know what? Yer right. this is your con and everything else and I shouldn't go around posting stuff without my facts straight. And I haven't.. I pulled everything as you can see and I won't say another word about Anthrocon for the rest of my days on this earth. But I do say this, Kage. I have been nice about this and I have taken your abuse and harsh words.. and have done so up to a point. The reason I posted a retraction btw is because Xydexx ASKED me and didn't yell at me or threaten me. That was the way to go.. not the way you went." to Kagemushi.
Somewhere on the muck, Equis has connected.
Kagemushi pages, "You're right. We're through." to you.
And he put me on ignore after that.
Oh and here's something that alot of you may or may not know. Y'know how Kage is on TV during Anthrocon ? How he goes well we're all a squeaky clean group here and blah blah blah? Were not perverted at all!
Meet Rogue. http://rogue.macrophile.com/
Rogue is Kage's alt. Period. I don't give a damn if people don't believe me because I already know the truth. Look at the stories and all that.. now is that considered CLEAN and WHOLESOME?
I think not.
Uncle Kagemushi .. a walking hypocrite
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Yeah Rogue kinda became common knowledge after the WYS parade of retards marched through the Internet fandom early last year. I suspect it was pretty much an open secret among some before then, but of course WYS was full of children, so there you go.
You'd have thought that woulda done some damage to Kage's credibility, but then I suppose there were people who (genuinely) supported Nicolae Ceauşescu throughout the eighties, too.
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The Rogue thing was common knowledge in the days of CYD. It's so minor I don't believe it bears mention, the guy has a character and a fetish, that's not uncommon and doesn't really impact his work at AC. Yes, he lies about how squeaky clean furry is to the media. Him getting his crush fetish on doesn't make that lie any more blatant. (Though Uncle Tom comparisons do abound.)
I wouldn't suppose there's a copy of that original journal post? For all that's been said and written about Kage over the past decade, nobody's documented anything in detail about the Dorsai. Their record as a goon squad in fingerless gloves and stupid hats is hilarious enough, and apparently they even filk.
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Y'know with the Dorsai horror stories making the rounds as of late you'd think somebody or some website would write up an expose about them.
Now where could I find such a website...
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The Rogue thing was common knowledge in the days of CYD. It's so minor I don't believe it bears mention, the guy has a character and a fetish, that's not uncommon and doesn't really impact his work at AC. Yes, he lies about how squeaky clean furry is to the media. Him getting his crush fetish on doesn't make that lie any more blatant. (Though Uncle Tom comparisons do abound.)
I wouldn't suppose there's a copy of that original journal post? For all that's been said and written about Kage over the past decade, nobody's documented anything in detail about the Dorsai. Their record as a goon squad in fingerless gloves and stupid hats is hilarious enough, and apparently they even filk.
Here's a copy. Thank god for Gmail ;)
To whom it may concern,
My name is Thomas Riccardi (aka Johnny Blanco in the furry community)
and I have been meaning to write this letter for the longest time.
Why? Because this is about one convention and one convention only..
and I know you can guess it.
Anthrocon.
Anthrocon granted has grown in size and in attendance every year and I
am fine with that. Also it's grown in popularity and of course the
need for a security force has always been prominent at this convention
else there would be utter chaos. So the Dorsai were called in to do a
great security job and all I have to say is this.
You people fail. Every year to do so.
Why do I say this? Simply put you bring on a few bad apples every year
and these bad apples act like cops with a badge. Now I could go ahead
into a tirade of long curses, expletives and on and on but that won't
make you people take me seriously. Instead let me go ahead and bring
up facts starting from this year:
Fact: Like most other big cons of the past (and AC is no exception)
there is always a big dose of drama there that gets around sadly... A
friend of mind apperently was confronted by a Dorsai, ( con seceurity,
of whom should be re-named to Dicksai ) by getting on the elevator on
the third floor. Most know there is a rule that the 2nd and 3rd floors
are restricted for entering the elevators, but simple mistakes happen
late at night ( when there is nobody in the lobboy linup anyways) so
the particular staff member proceeded to rip his conbadge off his
shirt, tearing his badge holder, and also reported he was pushed
agianst the wall.
- Now if im correct, both of those are chargable offences, ( assault,
and confinement) That incident sort fo reminded me of a simmilar one
last year to a friend, where a con staff Dicksai ripped a conbadge
from his fursuit , and ripping out fur in the process. Thats enough to
warrant a lawsuit against the con staff member for damages if he had
persued it. (if that happened here in canada it would have been bad
for the con staff.
After 9 years of attending AC, i coud see a rise in Con staff related
incidents & discrepencies regarding the con security, where some of
the security went a little to far and crossed the line with people,
... its almost like its going to their heads and treating the con like
a military camp in some of the cases. It reminds me of the time when
one of the dicksai ( i wont mention this particular assholes name)
decided to grab the fur on the shoulder of Dakkota and almost tear it,
because i may have been standing a little to close to the bottom of an
escilator for his tastes and authourity went to his head.... I grabbed
his wrist with alot fo force to resist him tearing my suit and told
him to imediately remove his hand or i would imideately call police
and press charges, then after he let go i told him i would be going
back to my room and if i found any damage WHAT SO EVER i would be
contacting my lawyers and filling a lawsuit against him and any
nessasary other parties & sue for damages & assult. Sadly the jackass
still serves on con staff of AC... it probally time for the con heads
to wake up and get a grip on these out of control loose cannons they
have on their Dicksai staff before on of them does somthing stupid and
results the con committee getting in a heap of legal battles,
lawsuits, charges, etc. But its not likely to change untill its to
late and somthing do happen. Anthrocon is getting big, almost to big,
and one day somthign is going to go wrong in a bad way.
This was taken from a friends journal.
Fact: A friend of mine ran the headless lounge by himself. He was told
that he was going to have backup in the way of the dorsai.. guess
what.. didn't happen. This led to the lounge being closed EARLY and
pissing off alot of suiters. Now there are some suiters that do not
want to go back to AC because it's getting too big.
Fact: Anthrocon 2007 my mate was barked at from a Dorsai because he
removed his head during a fursuit parade. Reason he did that? HE COULD
NOT BREATHE! What would you have him do? STAY THERE in the head and
PASS OUT?
Fact: The security force, dorsai, have been belligerent to some
attendees and vendors/dealers in some cases. They are lacking in good
customer service, majorly. Also from another friends journal
Fact: A friend of mine who shall remain nameless no longer serves with
the Dorsai because of "The way they handle things"
All this leads up to one point.
You have two choices. a) Clean house and severely monitor your staff
at Anthrocon from now on or b) Step down and let someone professional
handle the security for the event.
The reason I say this? Simply put things are going to come to a head
and when they do someone will either be charged with criminal charges
, lawsuit or worse.. the most extreme example I can see is either
someone hospitalized or someone dead.
I will be posting this letter to my LJ and FA account . You don't have
to respond.
Just felt like venting my frustrations. And you know what? It feels
damned good.
Johnny
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So, I'm guessing the point of this post is: when complaining to con staff, don't let them know your real name.
As far as the Dorsai go, I haven't made it to Anthrocon so I can't say what these folks are all about but the idea of having non-furry volunteer staff at a fur con strikes me as odd.
Why would someone who isn't a furry volunteer to work at a fur-con? That sounds like a lot of work for very little reward. Someone who is a fur might want to participate in the con but they (the Dorsai) obviously aren't interested in this subject matter (yes, I realize there are a few furries among them). So I can't see why someone would do this other than the huge power trip they get to have for the weekend.
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Honestly?
I am greatly ashamed to admit that, when I was much younger, I was part of a congoing group whose goal was to provide 'convention security'. They were never actually -hired- to do such, and I mostly hung around them because we'd play D&D and M:TG and such, but the 'leader' insisted they were a 'con security' group.
He was an obese, infirm man, far too old to be hanging out with the 18 year olds who somehow wound up getting drafted into his group, who may have at some point in his life had military aspirations, but very likely never got as far as even enlisting (let alone basic training). He was also always the DM for the D&D games, and the arbiter of all rule conflicts in M:TG games, and just in general a control nut.
I imagine the dorsai are something similar. At least some of the men involved probably had military or police aspirations at some point in their lives, and they got hung up on the rank and drilling and orderly teamwork and such, but they just couldn't hack it in a real-world situation. So they got a bunch of friends together, formed a 'convention security' group, and decided to start volunteering for animal control at a convention whose primary attendees are terrified at the mere mention of authority. In other words, what you might call 'a really easy gig'.
Finally, don't think for a second that they aren't receiving some non-psychological benefit from all this. There are a lot of people involved, and that's a lot of money to get everyone together and travel to the convention. I'm willing to bet the con covers their suite, their travel, and probably their alcohol.
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Provincial's basically got it down. At its core, it's a free travel, drinking party and power trip club for a group of sci-fi greybeards and some younger help. The wording you always hear around them being picked up for a con is 'hired', so they certainly get travel and expenses free, though I doubt anyone really sees any money out of it. As much as I'd love to see a good expose on them, their very nature apart from Furry and as a closed group makes inside dirt really hard to come by.
The most amazing part about them is the scale of their impunity at AC: sure, there are the usual little stories, of which I have a few myself. But the real problem is they have too much trust from the leadership: I really think at this point Kage&co. would never believe the Dorsai could EVER do anything wrong. A few years back, they brought Giza into their ranks. So you have the ops director, nominally in charge of security, being part of the people you're 'hiring' to do security. In the real world, we'd use phrases like 'conflict of interest' or 'undue influence' in such a situation. This is Furry, though, and as I recall the announcement was made to significant applause.
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What ProvincialTwit said. I don't know how Kage hooked onto the Dorsai, who were originally created as security teams for science-fiction conventions because rent-a-cops didn't understand geek behavior at cons and were even worse control freaks. Security for Anthrocon back around 2000 was handled by a group of furries of which the core originated from the Ottawa/Montreal area and - what do you know - the head guy was a military and gun enthusiast. Ten years later, not much change. In this 2011 video, he's the guy in the beret. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtk5iCfE__0&t=11m27s)
One advantage of the Dorsai is that if some furry idiot is causing trouble, they're not immersed enough in the fandom to care about popularity wars based on whoever the idiot says he knows, trying to get out of trouble. Unfortunately the same lack of immersion means they're less beholden to repercussions if their members start throwing their weight around.
Another unusual thing about the Dorsai is that they work at both science-fiction and furry conventions - a rare cross-over. Furry fandom is pretty insular in that most of its members don't go to non-furry conventions, though there's the occasional fursuiter or anime fan and such. And most people who go to anime and SF conventions stay the heck away from furry conventions. So I'm curious what stories about Anthrocon the Dorsai take with them to tell the SF crowd.
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Nothing's going to happen until there's a lot of public pressure to change (something drastic like "The Dorsai threw Adam Wan down a flight of stairs" would have to happen though) OR if someone presses legal action against the convention due to the Dorsai overstepping their bounds.
There was a story posted to Lulz prior to this year's AC where the OP said they were once denied use of the convention center elevators by the Dorsai despite having a medical condition with their leg. Not only is this just the wrong thing to do, it's also illegal under the Americans with Disabilities Act and probably a violation of Anthrocon's contract with the convention center. But since this is furry, and not real life, no one will do anything because if they dared bring a lawsuit against anyone, Kage would say they're worse than Terrorists and they'd be outcast from the "fandom". Oh no!
People should probably also start recording these types of things. But they probably won't because they don't want to get "banned" from the convention because they dared to try to hold the rent-a-cops accountable created "negative press".
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It would have to be someone who didn't give a shit about their social position in furry, but at the same time cared enough to press the issue. Which is basically to say, for all the reasons everyone's pointed out, it'll never happen.
It's been like this for years...everyone knows someone, and there's been whispers about stuff that "crossed the line"...but thanks to social pressures the sycophants will always have a blanket of plausible deniability.
I wonder how much the senior Dorsai leadership is being "replenished" as it were...could they be enough of a closed group that once these aging diabeetus sacks kick off in their sixties, that the group will be no more, at least in its current form?
And the only thing I don't think anyone's pointed out re: the psychological machinations of the Dorsai, is that these are people who love wielding authority (and the- however incredulous for these guys- threat of violence) over other people. There's a fucking lot of other shit that goes into being military or police, shit that these guys can't ever understand. Stuff like being able to resolve conflict in a peaceful manner, being able to solve problems and connect the dots...they just want to stand in front of people with their arms crossed, gun in the holster, and grunt "no". THAT's why they probably couldn't hack it in the "real world", but with cities desperate to lock up their black youth get "crime" under control, the standards are vastly lower than they were when any of these beardos were in any kind of physical shape for military or police work.
Most of these types (of which there are a few in furry) get jobs along the rent-a-cop lines. Presumably these guys were too pathetic even for that.
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I agreed with almost everything in that statement except for one. There were a few people who were on Dorsai staff back in 1999 that were in the RCMP. They decided to opt out of the Dorsai because they "did not like the way it was being run". That's fact. I hear horror stories from my friend about what they used to do and I just shake my head and go.. man.. some of these people need to get their asses handed to them.
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I wonder how much has changed over the last 12 years, or if in fact what has changed is that they are much more careful about keeping a lid on the horror stories. The easy way to do that is to demand intense loyalty, and to keep the door to entry in the group mostly sealed.
So I wonder how "open" the Dorsai were then as opposed to now? Because it sure seems like we should have had a disgruntled ex-member or two posting somewhere (Usenet?), but AFAIK that's not happened.
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Senior leadership? Just about zero, from what can be seen, with no apparent grooming of the ranks. I think that's the most likely trajectory, after enough of them have to hang it up, then the whole thing will fall apart. Unless one of the Furries involved tries to salvage it for street cred purposes. As for the rest, I doubt they were ever very open.
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What ProvincialTwit said. I don't know how Kage hooked onto the Dorsai, who were originally created as security teams for science-fiction conventions because rent-a-cops didn't understand geek behavior at cons and were even worse control freaks. Security for Anthrocon back around 2000 was handled by a group of furries of which the core originated from the Ottawa/Montreal area and - what do you know - the head guy was a military and gun enthusiast. Ten years later, not much change. In this 2011 video, he's the guy in the beret. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtk5iCfE__0&t=11m27s)
Um. No. This guy was the friend I was talking about. His name is Arcticwolf and he has LONG since abandoned the Dorsai. TRRRRUST me on this. He hates them with a passion more than I do. Hell I remember the last time I was at AC (in 09) and we were hanging out in front of Tonic (the bar across the street from the hotel) and he was literally drinking beers and bashing on the Dorsai. It was comedy at it's finest. Yes he's a gun nut or whatever else.. but he's RCMP! Duh! :D
One advantage of the Dorsai is that if some furry idiot is causing trouble, they're not immersed enough in the fandom to care about popularity wars based on whoever the idiot says he knows, trying to get out of trouble. Unfortunately the same lack of immersion means they're less beholden to repercussions if their members start throwing their weight around.
Exactly. They really don't care about whatever until they peg someone higher up and a shitstorm happens. This happens at Furfright alot because there's a guy on staff for the Dorsai (sadly, they run security for that con as well) that hates Dragoneer with a passion and even if he's not doing anything wrong this guy from the Dorsai will go after him like a rabid pitbull. That's not doing your job Dorsai.. that's having a grudge. That's like a cop coming over to your house and beating the shit out of you weekly because he doesn't like you.
Another unusual thing about the Dorsai is that they work at both science-fiction and furry conventions - a rare cross-over. Furry fandom is pretty insular in that most of its members don't go to non-furry conventions, though there's the occasional fursuiter or anime fan and such. And most people who go to anime and SF conventions stay the heck away from furry conventions. So I'm curious what stories about Anthrocon the Dorsai take with them to tell the SF crowd.
Supposedly, according to their website they were in existence long before Anthrcon and even furry cons were in existence (way back in 1973 as the website claims) in fact this link http://www.di.org/di_tl.htm shows that the dorsai hadn't reigned in security until then. Now I remember. Arcticwolf used to be a senior staff of security at Anthrocon because of his training and when the Dorsai took over in 2002 he clashed with the way they handled things and I think he just gave up on it and let them run it. I could be wrong but I see it playing out that way.
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Another unusual thing about the Dorsai is that they work at both science-fiction and furry conventions - a rare cross-over. Furry fandom is pretty insular in that most of its members don't go to non-furry conventions, though there's the occasional fursuiter or anime fan and such. And most people who go to anime and SF conventions stay the heck away from furry conventions.
Citation fucking needed. I can't think of any con-going furries I have met who don't also attend anime and/or sci-fi cons. I don't think I know of any furs who don't at least have a passing interest in either sci-fi or anime and who wouldn't at least go to something like Comic-Con if they had the chance or the money. But I'll buy the part that most non-furry geeks want nothing to do with the furry fandom.
Yes, I realize that is a big load of anecdotal evidence, and probably biased by the fact that Comic-Con and Anime Expo are both less than an hour from my house.
Still, the fact that a bunch of Trekkies? travel across the country to a a fur-con to run security for "free" when the whole furry thing is light years away from their interests seems so odd. I mean, I wouldn't do it, even for copious amounts of beer. But I guess I have have something resembling a life.
And as cons get larger, I would think more of them would have to turn to actual "professional" security staff.
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Have you knuckleheads forgotten that the whole 'furry' thing spawned from sci-fi cons to begin with? Among the current generation of furfags, sure, sci-fi and furry cons are a "rare cross-over"; but go back 15 years to when Confurence was the only 'furry' game in town and the cross-over was still pretty significant.
Goddamn I can't get over how wrong you are gnpg goddamn
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And honestly, can we trust a group of people who can't police their own on the internet to police their own in a hotel?
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Have you knuckleheads forgotten that the whole 'furry' thing spawned from sci-fi cons to begin with? Among the current generation of furfags, sure, sci-fi and furry cons are a "rare cross-over"; but go back 15 years to when Confurence was the only 'furry' game in town and the cross-over was still pretty significant.
Nope, haven't forgotten; I was talking about the current generation, so I agree with you.
Citation fucking needed. I can't think of any con-going furries I have met who don't also attend anime and/or sci-fi cons.
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Yes, I realize that is a big load of anecdotal evidence, and probably biased by the fact that Comic-Con and Anime Expo are both less than an hour from my house.
I think we're both citing anecdotal evidence. I've lived in two cities (one big, one small) and the majority of furries in both places weren't all that interested in attending other types of conventions, it was 20% at most. They were least interested in SF, more for anime, and a little bit more if it was a generalist comic-con-mixed-with-other-stuff kind of event. I've been to Worldcon a couple of times and the furry attendance is negligible - not surprising, as the registration fees are huge - but even most furries from the SF crowd of 15 years ago with a disposable income don't bother to go. I've never been able to attend the really big events, SDCC, DragonCon, so it's quite possible I'm simply in the wrong places at the wrong times.
Anyway, I'm quite willing to cede the point if other people are seeing something different. Don't mind being wrong! Sure it can feel like a slap to the face, but I like having my biases shoved back at me. Gets me thinking, makes me understand things from a different perspective, whether I agree with it or not. And on Vivisector, it simply wouldn't be the place it is if a slap to the face or a kick to the nuts wasn't thrown in for good measure.
Oh god now I sound all happy-feely. FUCK!
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One thing that is worth pointing out is a lot of geek conventions are pretty thoroughly commercialized these days and are little more than industry conventions and/or platforms for launching new products. When your primary audience is businesses (say, industry press) sending employees to an event, yes, the price of almost everything connected to that goes through the roof.
At least that's what I see out of, say, ComicCon. I don't give a shit about comics or anything related but the non-stop press coverage on some tech/gaming outlets (which I don't give a shit about either but I get contaminated through Google News) led me to believe that. I'm sure being a host organism for industry is probably pretty financially advantageous.
Furries will never see that level of commercialism. Even cons that have explicitly tried to create an environment like that have really not been successful. Because while the not-furry convention world has seen increasing commercial participation, the furries have most likely seen a precipitous decline in their average income and education levels over the last 15-20 years. There's a lot of reasons for that.
But anyway, cross-attendance. I think it helps to figure out what cliques within furry you're talking about. I think classic geek-types probably do have some level of cross-pollination but most of the new arrivals- the ravers, the fresh-out-of-the-closet transplants from East Bumblefuck, PA, whatever, probably have comparatively little interest in other geek fandoms. That's not why they're "here". I don't really know how much things line up over age/generation and time, but it's worthwhile to remember that there are sub-groups within furry that have fundamentally different archetypical personalities.
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I tried going to a few sci-fi cons. Maybe it was just a few bad apples, but I didn't get anywhere near as much a kick out of them. They were full of panels with people rambling about topics that I didn't care about. Furry cons are more consistently fun for me.
(I did see a small pile of free comdoms outside the dance at one con, which I approved of. Furries could do with more safe sex!)
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people rambling about topics that I didn't care about.
Wikipediacon
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Wikipediacon
I presented there (http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:LP1) once. Good times.
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...
But anyway, cross-attendance. I think it helps to figure out what cliques within furry you're talking about. I think classic geek-types probably do have some level of cross-pollination but most of the new arrivals- the ravers, the fresh-out-of-the-closet transplants from East Bumblefuck, PA, whatever, probably have comparatively little interest in other geek fandoms. That's not why they're "here". I don't really know how much things line up over age/generation and time, but it's worthwhile to remember that there are sub-groups within furry that have fundamentally different archetypical personalities.
One thing to mention is that by "cross-attendance" I mean furries who would attend other cons, not furries who do so consistently. For example, going to comic-con would be a no-brainer for me as I live near San Diego (and, as mentioned, these sorts of cons have become much more focused on popular culture in general) but in the past few years it I haven't gone because it's become outrageously expensive, tickets have become hard to get and the event gridlocks the whole city making it kind of a hassle to show up for a day.
Maybe this is just a west-coast thing but there seems to be a lot of spillover from general geek culture at fur cons I've seen. I kind of feel like I'm one of a few furries that's into anthros and not anime. It's a sea of young guys who, although wearing tails, appear to be more interested in talking about vidya with each other (and using lots of 4chan memes) than watching any of the fursuiters ambling around. Again, personal bias- except for a few fursuiting friends, I find hugging a fursuiter to be like hugging a wet dog so maybe I don't seek out that crowd.
As far as furries go, I would say that there are 3 basic groups in regards to cons (obviously there are further divisions and subgroups)- those who do not go to cons at all, because furry is purely fap material or because they are too socially-retarded or too poor, even for the furry fandom; those who have a passing interest and will maybe go to a fur meet or nearby con; and those who regularly travel many hours away to attend a con. The latter, IMO have the most cross-attendance because people who like the idea of cons tend to go to non-furry events as well.
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Don't think this article (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A97064) has been mentioned yet. Standard whitewashing from Kage, until they ask him straight up about the sex. That perception is all Confurence's fault, apparently, and he dragged it out of the gutter by drawing all the true furries away from the icky west coast. Which is a few grains of truth under a whole mountain of self-congratulatory PR. I don't think any of these views are new, but I haven't seen them put together quite this slickly before.
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Don't think this article (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A97064) has been mentioned yet. Standard whitewashing from Kage, until they ask him straight up about the sex. That perception is all Confurence's fault, apparently, and he dragged it out of the gutter by drawing all the true furries away from the icky west coast. Which is a few grains of truth under a whole mountain of self-congratulatory PR. I don't think any of these views are new, but I haven't seen them put together quite this slickly before.
Well, they're making progress. It would be awesome if one day one of these alt-weeklies "straight up" asked him about Rogue. And videotaped it, also too.
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Don't think this article (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A97064) has been mentioned yet. Standard whitewashing from Kage, until they ask him straight up about the sex. That perception is all Confurence's fault, apparently, and he dragged it out of the gutter by drawing all the true furries away from the icky west coast. Which is a few grains of truth under a whole mountain of self-congratulatory PR. I don't think any of these views are new, but I haven't seen them put together quite this slickly before.
Well, they're making progress. It would be awesome if one day one of these alt-weeklies "straight up" asked him about Rogue. And videotaped it, also too.
So it sounds like a small "press kit" about Kage's...extracurricular activities needs to go out to the local media about a week before Anthrocon then? Just in the Usenet archive alone, there should be enough stuff to make a solid connection.
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Words fail to express just how little of a shit the local press would give about the Rogue thing.
Kage isn't fooling anyone with his PR shit. Ask the average idiot frat kid what a furry is and he'll be all "hey aren't they those queers who do it in animal costumes?". The fact is, the bullshit that Conway and other big figures spin, no matter how phony, was long ago deemed a necessary (if transparent) cover story to maintain good relations with hotel management and avoid the closed-door policies that "mainstream" fetish parties are forced to implement.
Nobody actually believes it, but at the same time nobody really cares. Especially as long as they get paid. Too many people profit directly off of the "oh the sex is only a TEENY TINY BIT of what furry is all about" bullshit to let it drop, and it'll continue to be propped up until everyone finally gets fed up with it or something really, really nasty happens.
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I know a member of the press who was assigned to cover Anthrocon this year. I have also spoken to one of the poor photojournalists who have been sent to AC in the past.
No one in the media believes the shit Kage spreads, and the reporters assigned to cover it don't care enough to dig deeper or say otherwise because they probably lost the straw poll or were in the bathroom during the editorial meeting or they're an intern. They go, they listen to his BS, they might interview some of the "weird" people because they know that will bring in internet viewers. Then they'll go back to work, throw the package together, and laugh with their coworkers about how weird the convention was. There's also a good chance they were told how to cover it, something like "Talk about all the money it brings to local businesses" or "Get us something fun we can put on before the weather".
"Local Furry Convention Chairman Has Weird Fetish" does not work well before the weather.
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Exactly. Furry is so difficult to describe that a proper explanation that fits into the Kitten Report slot would look like a total mess, AND there's absolutely no incentive to dig that deep.
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Furry is so far from most people's radar that even the hipster readers of an alt.newspaper wouldn't be interested in the fandom's juicy drama.
The press only mentions fur cons because hordes of unwashed beardos descend on the city and people want to know WTF is going on.
I don't understand why so many furries get so hung up on their public image save for the few that have actually made a career or charity work out of the fandom. It's 2011 folks, the inhabitants of a major city aren't going to care that a bunch of nerds have gay sex in a hotel room, sometimes wearing animal costumes.
I don't even why understand furries and sex is even newsworthy to begin with. We're talking about a group of people who are largely (but not entirely) in their late teens/early 20s. We're talking about the same age group that you see in all the sorority/fraternity or Spring Break sexcapades and all the "Girls Gone Wild" stuff. Nobody seems to care about that. So, promiscuity among spolied college kids is considered normal, but when it's a bunch of gay nerds doing it, somehow it's shocking??? It's slutty behavior, sure, but not exactly unexpected considering the demographic involved.
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The reason furries get so hung up on public image is because so many of them simply CANNOT separate their 'furry identity' from, well, anything. It's so ingrained into the entirety of their being that everything they do, or touch, or see, because 'furryized'.
Including, of course, any semblance of a professional life. They aren't just an employee, they're a ~furry employee~.
Granted if you're just a wage slave flipping burgers or doing low-level tech support then it's unlikely your employer is going to give two fucks unless the dress code explicitly forbids fake ears and tails, or you get caught looking at porn on the clock. But if you're in any sort of higher-powered position, that inability to separate your 'furry self' from your 'professional self' can become a liability, not just to you but to your employer. In that case...
ahaha who am i kidding furries can't get high-powered positions
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They do; you just don't hear about it because they're not the "identity" types. I'm not saying CEO or whatever but you've basically hit the nail on the head. Having a career requires that people have respect for you. Respect requires professional conduct. Having a "lifestyle" is not professional conduct.
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http://unclekage.livejournal.com/138084.html
Andy Runton has got to be one of the coolest and at the same time most genteel guests Anthrocon has ever hand. Millions of people out there enjoy "Owly," a bird who says very little yet speaks such volumes to all of us.
Andy (and Owly) could use a little help. They're using a very outdated version of Adobe Creative Suite and would so love to upgrade to something a bit more 21st-Century. Andy is too modest to ask for donations, but me, well, I have no shame. If you like Owly and you would like to help drag his artist kicking and screaming into the modern age, you can make a Paypal donation to andyrunton(at)mac.com.
I've made mine, modest though it is, because every little bit helps. I firmly believe that such a unique and cherished creation as Owly fully deserves our support, if only to keep his creator from going mad with the incessant "this version is no longer supported" boxes.
"Owly" is also very well merchandised (http://www.andyrunton.com/store.html) and has appeared at several conventions (including Comic-Con), but even with the "millions of fans", the artist needs the help of the furry fandom to buy a $700 software package. And the man who's asking for the donations will fly himself and his parents first class to a furry convention in another country.
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http://unclekage.livejournal.com/138084.html
Andy Runton has got to be one of the coolest and at the same time most genteel guests Anthrocon has ever hand. Millions of people out there enjoy "Owly," a bird who says very little yet speaks such volumes to all of us.
Andy (and Owly) could use a little help. They're using a very outdated version of Adobe Creative Suite and would so love to upgrade to something a bit more 21st-Century. Andy is too modest to ask for donations, but me, well, I have no shame. If you like Owly and you would like to help drag his artist kicking and screaming into the modern age, you can make a Paypal donation to andyrunton(at)mac.com.
I've made mine, modest though it is, because every little bit helps. I firmly believe that such a unique and cherished creation as Owly fully deserves our support, if only to keep his creator from going mad with the incessant "this version is no longer supported" boxes.
"Owly" is also very well merchandised (http://www.andyrunton.com/store.html) and has appeared at several conventions (including Comic-Con), but even with the "millions of fans", the artist needs the help of the furry fandom to buy a $700 software package. And the man who's asking for the donations will fly himself and his parents first class to a furry convention in another country.
You know what's really sad about this?
It's actually going to work.
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What does Kage get out of using his position for this sort of thing? He seems to have a habit of doing this, it's gotten him into trouble in a couple of instances IIRC.
Also, "genteel". Really? I have to say, I've never met Kage in person or seen him perform, or whatever it is he does. Everyone says he's a pretentious cock, and while I often come away with different impressions of people than most, I feel like this is probably the exact impression that I would get. He sounds like a fictional version of himself.
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What does Kage get out of using his position for this sort of thing? He seems to have a habit of doing this, it's gotten him into trouble in a couple of instances IIRC.
He gets to look like a "nice guy" by "helping" another furry. The more gullible members of the fandom will donate towards getting this guy something wholly unnecessary for his immediate survival just because Kage is a "nice guy who helps furries".
God knows this guy couldn't just, y'know, save up the money to buy the program himself -- nope, furries gotta fur and help raise the cash for it because "OMG if I don't help this other furry I don't even really know then I'll be considered a bad furry!!!11!1".
I can understand donating towards somebody's immediate survival -- like, say, helping somebody get some food/temporary housing after a natural disaster -- but buying someone a pricey computer program for no reason other than they're in the same internet community as you is fucking ridiculous.
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But he's out here risking his reputation for this; he puts a stake in every one of these posts he makes. If the person turns out to be a total flake or whatever, Kage looks bad. If he were to start making that into a pattern, it would hurt his reputation (theoretically). So from Kage's perspective it's kind of better not to do this, or at least not to whore out every random plea for money you see/are asked to whore out. I'm sure he gets a lot of them, since people listen to what he has to say for whatever reason.
Maybe he's just learned that it costs him nothing to stick his neck out in this manner; given that it's Kage, that's very possible. Perhaps this guy is just a buddy of his or something...IIRC Kage was whoring for donations for 2 Gryphon's plane tickets or something a while back.
Kage is not an altruistic person. He likes to be perceived as such, but there's always something in it for him, even if it is just accolades. I tend to think he gets that enough anyway; so there must be another angle. Who knows.
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You say it'd hurt his reputation, theoretically. Practice shows that isn't the case. This entire thread shows that, a decade of public freakouts over the media and con ghosts hasn't harmed his reputation among his crusty bearded peers. Con drunkenness, fan-funded trips to Europe, and his Dr. Conway/Mr. Rogue double identity haven't budged him from Anthrocon, even in the face of superprudes Xydexx-and-boyfriend. Nothing's going to pry his hangers-on away from him short of acting like an adult.
That said, this can't backfire. Conway's biggest fans are the braindead remnants of fandom who still go into fannish orgasms over Rescue Rangers, so this Nick Jr. level crap will serve their fetishes nicely.