Author Topic: HORRIBLE TRACERS  (Read 5533 times)

Conan

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HORRIBLE TRACERS
« on: April 10, 2014, 01:11:16 am »
It's been displayed in the past that several members of FA's administration, among them the unholy trinity of Dragoneer, Chase, and Sciggles, have some sort of issue with "tracers". Perhaps it's because they can't ever think of anything original themselves, seeing as Dragoneer and Chase use Digimon/Pokemon as their own characters, and Sciggles rips of My Little Pony (and occasionally rips off ripoffs) at every opportunity. Also remember that the big Sciggles drama that got her "banned" for all of two days was because she threw a fit about someone tracing. The horror!

Why do I bring this up? Because yesterday, Chase decided that FA's rule against "tracing" also covered when someone commissions an artist to trace over/heavily reference a photo they took of themselves, which is apparently a trend lately. That's right, tracing over works you created or someone created for you is UNACCEPTABLE on the site who's original motto was "Where freedom of expression reigns supreme!" But please, continue posting "Your Character Here's" and your real original Digimon and MLP content.

Below, you can see the art that Kihu was commissioned to draw, and Chase's ruling from atop Mount Dogdick.



Read that carefully and notice the part where Chase hands down a 30-day ban on someone ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION OF A RULE. Apparently his new title of "Code of Conduct Enforcement Lead" (Being promoted from "Harassment Lead" to Forum King apparently wasn't enough) also entitles him to be a complete dick to the site's users.

Unfortunately, this seems to have really blown up on Twitter after Dragoneer went to bed, which means we need to wait a while to see the PR machine go into overdrive and promise that upcoming revisions of the AUP will "clarify" this matter.


graeme

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 05:24:17 am »
This is wild.  Vincent Van Gogh was known to use some photographs and grid them up in his later career.  Rembrandt painted whole portraits using a grid apparatus that the subject (or subjects) would sit behind.  Even Leonardo Da Vinci started most of his works (reportedly) that way.  At least the early sketching before the painting began.

So FA would also ban Van Gogh, Rembrandt, and Da Vinci.  Not bad for a premier art site.


a pigeon

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 07:50:04 am »
The PR machine clunks and whirrs into life and so Dragoneer is saying on twitter:

https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/status/454263461904936960

that Kihu was banned for allegedly tracing this photograph (rather than the one in the OP) & because the photograph was not his/he did not have permission to copy it:

http://i.imgur.com/4XpaMDt.jpg
^
NSFW!

If you look at the overlay there are things that don't match up as well as things that do. So I suppose he either he partially traced it but made modifications or referenced it very closely. Perhaps he didn't have permission, but then a lot of stuff people do doesn't so surely best to let sleeping dogs lie unless forced by the original copyright holder. It doesn't seem worth a 30 day ban.

For reference, someone in a thread on lulz.net, who had watched Kihu draw in a stream, said that he didn't trace:

Quote from: Leuphe
As someone who's commissioned him in stream twice and watched a few others, I'd have to say "no" as he does use references but does never traces.
^
http://lulz.net/furi/res/2903241.html#2903254

Another person said that they had seen Kihu draw in person and on a stream and that he didn't trace those times at least:

Quote
As far as Kihu... IDK, I've watched him draw before, both irl and on a stream and I've never seen him trace shit but he could still do it some of the time.
^
http://lulz.net/furi/res/2903241.html#2903373

Dragoneer has no doubt and is staunchly defending his position with tweets on his twitter:

Quote from: Dragoneer
Why is tracing/copying a photo an issue? Why do I even need to explain it?

Quote
Referencing is fine. Totally fine. Outright copying and tracing the image... NO.

Quote
I really shouldn't have to explain why tracing somebody else's image is fine. But if you want to trace? Go for it. Just don't post it to FA.

Quote
And if Warhol traced, and posted his traces to FA, it would still be against site rules.

Seems a bit priggish to me. As Conan says its self-righteous outrage at the HORRIBLE TRACERS.

In, e.g the 16th century, artists might trace (from life as it were) by painting onto a sheet of glass that they looked at people/objects through, but don't tell Princess Piche that:



then he hent that noble prince by the hand,
and said "welcome my soueraigne King HENERY!
chalenge thy Herytage and thy Land,
that thine owne is, and thine shall bee."

ProvincialTwit

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 10:42:18 am »
This would be a great opportunity for staff of certain competing sites to publicly announce they are totally okay with these kind of works.  I'm just sayin'.

a pigeon

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 11:10:27 am »
Sciggles has jumped into this, in her usual hostile way, so we now have the full involvement of the unholy trinity.

WRT to this photograph Dragoneer says triggered the ban: http://i.imgur.com/4XpaMDt.jpg

Kihu has said on his twitter that he was given a photograph by someone who said they had permission from the model in the photograph for it to be used and he, in good faith, gridded and copied the photograph (not tracing it) to make the picture. Chase/Carmen contacted him assuming it was a trace and ordered him to remove the image and said "If this continues" you will be suspended. Kihu responded to Chase that the image wasn't traced, but that he did have a traced piece: the selfy in the OP which caused Chase/Carmen to give him an immediate 30 day ban. Kihu did not expect to receive a ban because Chase had said "if this continues": he thought it was a warning, so he not unreasonably assumed the suspension was for mentioning the selfy.

Sciggles said to Kihu on Twitter that she thinks he is spreading false rumours and she has threatened to post a screenshot of Chase/Carmen's note.

Here is some back and forth between their accounts on Twitter:

Quote from: Kihu
unfortunately sciggles, even after I removed this image (though it was gridded and trasferred, not traced) I was...
Quote
...suspended after telling the mod that I had other pieces in my gallery that were traced - the selfies.
Quote
Unless you can explain why I went from a warning to a full on suspension at the mention of the selfies rather than from the...
Quote
...start, I'm going to believe and feel like I was banned moreso for the selfies than for this.


Quote from: Sciggles
that's not what I heard/saw and I am also an admin so please contact me so I can get things sorted!

Quote from: Kihu
Honestly I don't want things sorted. FA Mods have shit on me too many times during my 7+ years there, and I'm done.

Quote from: Sciggles
you are spreading false rumors though. You were told you'd be suspended in your first message from Carmen with the original image

Quote from: Kihu
that's not true at all! She said IF THIS CONTINUES you will be suspended, it was a threat, not a statement
Quote
If she had straight up told me I WOULD be suspended from the start trust me, I would feel VERY different.

Quote from: Sciggles
I have the note right in front of me...please do not make me post a screenshot of it...

Quote from: Sciggles
I wanted to talk privately, I don't want to be hostile but I have the facts in front of me...I would like to discuss and get this
then he hent that noble prince by the hand,
and said "welcome my soueraigne King HENERY!
chalenge thy Herytage and thy Land,
that thine owne is, and thine shall bee."

ColonThree

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2014, 11:31:34 am »
So you can post a photo you took, but not trace it. Right then. If someone traces a 3D render they used as a base, is that okay?  If they trace something to use as a stencil which is then transferred onto an object, is that okay? 

Hey, where did the outlines for those christmas decorations Sciggles was making come from? I hope they weren't traced!
~Witty quote~

graeme

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 11:58:26 am »
Okay, I dug deeper.

Dragoneer has said that the original image in this thread is no problem, and that Kihu wasn't suspended for that image.

Kihu was suspended for an image that he got off a photo thief's DA account and traced over for a Buck drawing.  That photo is of a male model who most likely did NOT give permission to the photo thief on DA OR Kihu to create a derivative work of pornography.

Kihu then lied about what he was suspended for, and kerfluffle.

Given that Dragoneer has had NO PROBLEM with the initial image whatsoever (since the tracer owned rights to it and can use it as a reference, he's said this repeatedly), and that Kihu misled people, I don't know what to believe anymore.. other than this whole thing is bullshit and I'm tired of being manipulated by bullshitters.

Lynx

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 02:53:27 pm »
I'm tired of being manipulated by bullshitters.

Welcome to the real world.

Silvermink

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 06:33:34 pm »
Dragoneer has said that the original image in this thread is no problem, and that Kihu wasn't suspended for that image.

I dunno - between Chase's reply in the OP saying he had a problem with it even if the commissioner had provided it, and the fact that I don't trust Dragoneer any further than I could throw him...

Conan

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 07:56:24 pm »


I think this says it all. These all came within minutes of each other. So in the period of like, two minutes he says it's bad, then says it's fine, just not on FA.

Also, the Chase note wouldn't make any sense if Dragoneer's sequence of events is to be believed. It's also wildly inappropriate to ban someone for thirty days when they clearly don't understand a rule and are in the process of asking for clarification. It's furry porn, for fucks sake. It's not that serious.

graeme

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 05:29:27 am »
Kihu has slightly admitted to not exactly copying the note he received on FA verbatim, as well as having 'forgotten' what image was in question.  Chase's note may not have said what Kihu has said it said.  That's a third option.

I still think FA has a massive PR problem with Chase, but this case has been tainted by the lying of the artist in question, and if we can't believe either party, it's kind of worthless.

LordNagetiere

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 03:36:38 pm »
This would be better if FA staff actually used this hard-hammer approach on actual tracers, but if you TT a work, it takes months before they even bother to look into it, usually deleted by then.
random gay furry art is broken , when will it be fixed ?

ProvincialTwit

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 10:43:40 pm »
This would be better if FA staff actually used this hard-hammer approach on actual tracers, but if you TT a work, it takes months before they even bother to look into it, usually deleted by then.

Which more or less confirms that someone on staff had a tantrum about this particular person, hence the instaban.

ColonThree

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Re: HORRIBLE TRACERS
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 04:13:12 am »
This would be better if FA staff actually used this hard-hammer approach on actual tracers, but if you TT a work, it takes months before they even bother to look into it, usually deleted by then.

Posting a thread on /furi/ is far more effective.
~Witty quote~