Author Topic: The WikiFur Review  (Read 8077 times)

GreenReaper

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2008, 07:46:50 am »
I'm not sure that it is something that can be "won", by anyone. I don't particularly expect to convince you that my own moral guidelines are any righter than your own, just as you probably don't expect to convince me of yours (or at last, the one you hold out as being in opposition to mine). If our morals differ, it's inevitable that we'll disagree on who is morally right. It's an interesting discussion, though.

A second isn't a very long time. I'd probably be willing to spend a second if it would seriously help someone in my vicinity. But consider: a second multiplied by how many millions or billions of people? (for the curious, a billion seconds would be 30 years) If you take it to the logical conclusion, I'd have to dedicate my life to the benefit of random people. We could argue over whether or not it is right to do so, but if you seriously hold this view, why are you wasting your time here? ;)

When I look at it personally, there are only so many people I can help, and so it comes down to picking who, and how much, and whether it's better to help one random person live, or another less random person be happy. These are moral choices. If you have an absolute sense of morals, they may be simple ones.

MetropolitanDonut holds that the level of need is the most important thing - presumably believing in the greatest good for the greatest number. That is a fair choice, but it is not the only one. They offer no argument for why it is morally superior, but instead accept it as deriving "obviously" from an axiom they hold. Well, I prefer to help those in my "local community". If their physiological needs are already satisfied, so much the better, as I can focus on more interesting things than buying them soup.

Since you want an example . . . say I was to help fund the Ursa Majors (I believe the conventions hosting it have that covered nowadays). Does this benefit me personally? Yes, but only fairly indirectly, by promoting the development of great furry works, and bringing attention to the fandom as a whole. The concrete value I get from it (if any) is probably significantly less than the amount that I would expend on it.* The people it benefits most are those it celebrates, who are clearly furry fans - but who are unlikely to include me, as they don't run a "best furry wiki editor" award, or even one for best anthropomorphic website.

Note that the original "charity" that kicked off this discussion has very little to do with helping the most needy in the world, but instead has a decidedly large amount of self-interest for the group donating. Uncle Sam doesn't seem to care that much, and perhaps that's a reasonable mark for what US society considers a shared good - one which we can deduct from our taxes. After all, taxes are merely a forced method of giving towards a goal that is widely accepted by society as a common good, so only something equally good should be allowed to replace it. Their definition for that is any "religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or fostering national or international amateur sports, or the prevention of cruelty to children or animals." Clearly, what is strictly called "charity" is not the only thing seen as good in this society.

* Though this gets into how much you value time or money - does your valuation matter, or how much it's worth to those you give it to? Does it only count if you'd notice it, and if so, why? etc.

Pi

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2008, 11:03:09 am »
(a bunch of babbling and some more wikipedia links)
When I look at it personally, there are only so many people I can help, and so it comes down to picking who, and how much, and whether it's better to help one random person live, or another less random person be happy. These are moral choices. If you have an absolute sense of morals, they may be simple ones.
(some more babbling)

So, wait, your morals say you only need to help furries and everyone else can fuck off?
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ProvincialTwit

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 11:25:50 am »
I am defeated by the ancient technique of Wall o' Fucking Text and must concede.

LordNagetiere

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2008, 06:20:49 pm »
Ah the great philosophical debate. Headed at the forefront by the pickled Kent, the rock-rolling Camus and some asshole who runs a furry website. Thrilling.

While you are simply offering to do work at a function that you would be attending anyway.  This also goes entirely without mentioning that most conventions allow their volunteers to attend for free when not working, and if not, usually for a reduced fee.

Actually I'd argue most people volunteer at cons for sociopathic staff-cock sucking reasons rather than greedy ones. Furries have this kind of hive-cluster effect of offering free labor to one another if they think it can get them a devoted section of namespace in the neuron of big-wig furry x's head over it. In a lot of ways, kind of more sick than just doing it for the free admission next year.

I'm not sure that it is something that can be "won", by anyone.

Is this a comment on how you can't be charitable and 'prove' it, because in the case of altruism that might be true, but if you're going the route of 'who really does things'...

Well, I used to volunteer my time for a youth chapter of the American Red Cross, donated blood on multiple occassions (not anymore since they don't want fag blood), and did volunteer work (then later a lot more minimum wage work) working with felines in an animal shelter... and yet, I have done so goddamned little compared to some people it's downright shameful.

So fuck you for thinking that unloading art-show crap at FA:U or whatever is in the same league as those who are genuinely charitable.
random gay furry art is broken , when will it be fixed ?

Kindrift

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2008, 05:16:55 pm »
                   _,,---.)\__            JUST REMEMBER FOLKS:             
                 ,'.          ""`.                                         
                f.:               \       IF WIKIPEDIA IS EVER WRONG,       
             ,-.|:  ,-.       ,-.  Y-.    ESPECIALLY IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT   
     ,-.    f , \. /:  \   . /     | j    YOU, THEN IT'S *YOUR* FAULT       
    f.  Y   `.`.       _`. ,'_     |f                                       
    |:  |     ) )      "`    "`    |'     BECAUSE AFTER ALL IF YOU'D       
    l:. l    ( '          --.      j      BEEN CONTRIBUTING YOU WOULD       
     Y:  Y_,--.Y:         __      (       HAVE FIXED IT                     
  ,-.|  ,'.::..):..    ,'"-'Y.     Y                                       
 f:.           \ ::.  '"'`--`      j                                       
 j::            Y-.__        __,,-'___                                     
f;\::.          |    ``""""''__(""'_,.`--.   ,--.     NEXT TIME MAYBE YOU   
l:::::...       j--.       ,'.. `"'       Y-'.:::)    SHOULD DEVOTE MORE   
 `-..::::::_,,-'   :).     `--'(::..     ,j..::--(    EFFORT TO IMPROVING   
     f`"""'.  .  )-(:.      .:::`---\:.-'Y;:::::::Y   WIKIPEDIA INSTEAD     
     j:::::::::..   Y:        ..:::::`;_,;;;::::::j   OF COMPLAINING ABOUT 
    f::;;;;;::::::. j:           ...::::\;;:::_,,'    HOW YOU WERE LIBELLED
    l;;::::::::: _,;:       (.,     .....Y::."\                             
     Y;;;::::_,-';::..                   |:::. Y                           
     l;;;;;:::`-;;;::....                j;;::.|    AND SOMEHOW THIS LOGIC 
      `;;;;;;;;;:);;;;:::::...          /\;;;;:j    MAKES SENSE TO WIKIPEDOS
 PK     "`------'-.;;;;::::::::...._,-'"  `---'                             
                    ``"""""""""""''                                         


(Also donating to, say, the Ursa Major awards will benefit fucking nobody.)
What if the pentagon has stored lost data of porn and yiff in it's data, has anyone over there saved about millions of porn data and art in it's computer drive? tell me more about the facts what they have in your opinions!

DOUK NOUK EM

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 02:02:30 am »
Oh, Wikifur.

The Wikipedia for Furries, where the Fandumb is Bowdlerized and cleaned up to look like a happy gathering of people who merely have an interest in cartoon animals and fuzzy stuff, with a family-friendly atmosphere and fun for all ages, instead of a community of pedophiles and fetishists who cannot control their perversions and instead have allowed it to become part of their lives, even going so far as to put worth and importance on the characters they use for typefucking with random people and badly drawn artwork.

Wikifur was never good.

Kindrift

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2008, 02:14:14 pm »
From some Furry Digg article:

Quote from: GreenReaper
The article consists mostly of personal logs, with no indication that copyright permission was given from the chatters to the Vivisector user who posted them.

Logs from #myfursona or something, a public chat room, were reposted here.  Larry attempts to trash this site, so tell me, what gives?  Is this a misunderstanding of copyright law or dirty activism?
What if the pentagon has stored lost data of porn and yiff in it's data, has anyone over there saved about millions of porn data and art in it's computer drive? tell me more about the facts what they have in your opinions!

Freehaven

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2008, 02:39:28 pm »
Is this a misunderstanding of copyright law or dirty activism?

Can't it be both?

Also, LOL at needing "copyright notices" to post chat logs from a public forum/chat channel.  That's one of the most blatantly SLAPP-esque claims from a furry I've ever heard.

Kindrift

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2008, 03:02:58 pm »
I guess this is what running a wiki for babyfurs does to you.  Or Ritalin.
What if the pentagon has stored lost data of porn and yiff in it's data, has anyone over there saved about millions of porn data and art in it's computer drive? tell me more about the facts what they have in your opinions!

GreenReaper

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2008, 03:45:17 pm »
I guess this is what running a wiki for babyfurs does to you.  Or Ritalin.

Nah, it's the 11lb/5kg block of 70% chocolate in the pantry (how I stay 180lb I'll never know).

Is this thread really the WikiFur review, or the GreenReaper review?

Fate

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2008, 04:01:54 pm »
Given the speed of your WikiFur™ Rapid Response© Team®, both.

GreenReaper

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2008, 04:20:27 pm »
Given the speed of your WikiFur™ Rapid Response© Team®, both.

You'll be able to replace the ™ with a ® in a couple of months.

Kindrift

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2008, 04:57:08 pm »
WikiFur is GreenReaper plus a small collection of illiterate clowns who GreenReaper employs.  Unless you'd like to distort that statement, it's fairly clear that you're the only person responsible for the site.  That the administration of WikiFur does not understand a large portion of copyright is a rather large problem for a site that regularly handles copyright licenses and complaints.  Consider fixing this issue.
What if the pentagon has stored lost data of porn and yiff in it's data, has anyone over there saved about millions of porn data and art in it's computer drive? tell me more about the facts what they have in your opinions!

GreenReaper

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2008, 08:00:24 pm »
If you would like to explain how a collaboratively-written work falls naturally into the public domain, you are welcome to do so. WikiFur is composed of such works, and we're pretty sure our articles require licensing, because the action of creation matters. Shared authorship does not mean any one person can decide what to do with the work; they all have to agree. That's why we require all editors to license their work under the GFDL. We get maybe one copyright complaint a year, and not regarding that.

WikiFur has 18 active administrators who span a wide range of ages, professions, and genders, and hold diverse opinions on all manner of topics. Most have positions of responsibility elsewhere in the fandom. Together, they are responsible for about 60% of edits on the site - I'm less than a quarter of that (13%). The most recent featured articles and comics were chosen and implemented by a very new admin and a regular user, and there's a similar story for the majority of WikiFur News stories.

We make decisions in a similar distributed way - people give their opinions, and we try to come to a consensus. Yes, if an issue really is undecided, I'll probably make the call, but that comes after others speak.

The site will probably always reflect the values of its founder - but saying "WikiFur is GreenReaper" is as misleading as saying "Anthrocon is Kage", "Fur Affinity is Preyfar", or "George W. Bush is the Republican Party". We each have influence over our organizations, because it's the job of the executive to lay a path. However, we would quickly find ourselves unable to do that job if we did not heed the advice of those we work with - and I have no interest in having yes-men as contributors.

Pi

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2008, 08:09:33 pm »
If you would like to explain how a collaboratively-written work falls naturally into the public domain, you are welcome to do so.

Users on IRC have no legal expectation of privacy. It's a public channel. I'm not profiting off of their words.

Go home.
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GreenReaper

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2008, 08:15:33 pm »
Users on IRC have no legal expectation of privacy. It's a public channel. I'm not profiting off of their words.

The issue is copyright law, not privacy. Their work remains copyrighted no matter how it is published, as long as they are the ones who fix its expression into a tangible form. It's possible you may have a fair use defense for a particular use - that can only be ultimately decided by a jury in a court - but a claim of public domain would fail without a specific wavier of copyright.

Of course, if you find someone who believes they're not human, you're home free, because only humans have copyright (at least in the US: Copyright Office Practices 202.02(b) and 503.03(a)).

bersl2

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2008, 08:29:27 pm »
Users on IRC have no legal expectation of privacy. It's a public channel. I'm not profiting off of their words.

The issue is copyright law, not privacy. Their work remains copyrighted no matter how it is published, as long as they are the ones who fix its expression into a tangible form. It's possible you may have a fair use defense for a particular use - that can only be ultimately decided by a jury in a court - but a claim of public domain would fail without a specific wavier of copyright.

But look at the factors to be considered for such a finding:
Quote
       1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
       2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
       3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
       4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The purpose and character of the use is criticism. The amount and substantiality of the use is (I think) limited to the relevant sections and comprises a small fraction of the overall work. The work has little to no market value. If this doesn't qualify for a fair use, I'll eat my socks.

Furthermore, obtaining a finding of criminal infringement is likely impossible in this instance, so any action would be civil in nature, and unless there is enough value at stake, I don't think that any such trial would even be worth enough to be allowed as a jury trial; in all likelihood, it would be decided by the judge.

(The "use" being spoken about is that of the IRC logs, right?)

Pi

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2008, 08:36:17 pm »
and bersl2 hit the nail square on the end with the flat round thing stuck to it.
"we did farts.  now we do sperm.  we are cutting edge." — Theo DeRaadt

GreenReaper

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2008, 08:53:42 pm »
And that's all fine. But when I asked you if you were claiming fair use, your claim was quite different, specific, and wrong:

Quote from: Pi (as mtp on furryne.ws)
The "works", if you can call communication that, are in the public domain.

. . . and that is the thing that I had a complaint over. There's a world of difference between the two concepts.

Pi

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Re: The WikiFur Review
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2008, 09:05:31 pm »
And that's all fine. But when I asked you if you were claiming fair use, your claim was quite different, specific, and wrong:

Quote from: Pi (as mtp on furryne.ws)
The "works", if you can call communication that, are in the public domain.

. . . and that is the thing that I had a complaint over. There's a world of difference between the two concepts.

i'm not at my sharpest the morning after most of a fifth of rum. You, on the other hand are apparently not at your sharpest ever. To elaborate: You could have ended this a while ago by saying 'actually not public domain' but instead you argued that I had no right to use the conversation to begin with. So, while I was mildly incorrect, which I admit to, you still argued that I didn't have rights to quote, and came up with this bullshit about requiring commentary and other various garbage.
"we did farts.  now we do sperm.  we are cutting edge." — Theo DeRaadt