Author Topic: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA  (Read 7579 times)

an Hoopoe

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Silver Eagle, one of the recently brought on programmers has now walked away from Furaffinity after a disastrous and unpleasant experience: Dragoneer never submitted his employment contact to IMVU so he wasn't paid for 4 months of work.

Silver Eagle has made a youtube video wherein he explains his experiences and problems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30eEXUnoKus&feature=youtu.be

I listened to some of it:

Silver Eagle was brought on with the understanding that it was a paid job. He was happy to accept a lower than usual salary: one merely to pay the bills. He was never paid for his work and would have ended up homeless were it not for his savings.

Every time Silver Eagle asked for his payment there was some new excuse from Dragoneer to avoid paying him. When he asked to deal with someone at IMVU, IMVU said that Dragoneer never bothered to submit Silver Eagle's employment contract to IMVU so it was never entered into their system.

Yak hated other people being brought in and took 3 weeks to set up an account for the coders and refused to ever allow anyone to inspect the servers. He would not trust anyone else with anything and kept on fighting the whole time to prevent himself from being replaced.

Silver Eagle experienced stress so intense and miserable over the past 4 months he's been working for FA that he felt suicidal at times.

This is Silver Eagles comment on his youtube video:

Quote
After discovering today that there's a strong likelihood that I've been contributing hundreds upon hundreds of hours of unpaid labor to the FurAffinity web site, while suffering catastrophic stress at the hands of the existing IT and leadership, I've opted to cease all work on the project and instead inform the public of what has happened to date.

All of the code I produced while working on the FurAffinity rewrite was licensed under the Apache 2.0 open source license, and is available (without the unfinished legacy portions of the code) on this GitHub repository:
https://github.com/SlvrEagle23/FAOpen

If you would like to help support me as I struggle to find another source of income and recover from the multiple months I spent on the FA project that may never compensate me for my time, please visit my fundraiser page:
https://www.generosity.com/medical-fundraising/life-support-while-battling-depression

Thank you for listening. Sorry it had to come to this.

nrr

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2016, 07:34:05 pm »
I'm on the warpath now.
im glad the "I saw a furry IRL" thread is so good at bringing goons together

YOUR PARTICIPLES AREN'T THE ONLY THINGS DANGLING

Rowedahelicon

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2016, 07:52:36 pm »
I'm on the warpath now.

What do you mean?

Pi

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2016, 07:57:33 pm »
Silver Eagle, one of the recently brought on programmers has now walked away from Furaffinity after a disastrous and unpleasant experience

thread's over, time to go home

(basically, nobody is surprised except poor Silver Eagle himself)
"we did farts.  now we do sperm.  we are cutting edge." Theo DeRaadt

N

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2016, 08:08:25 pm »
I'm on the warpath now.

Hey! That's what I said. Saying stealer!

(basically, nobody is surprised except poor Silver Eagle himself)

Yeah, but that's a problem. And there's a huuuuge difference here. In the past staff that got fucked over were unpaid volunteers. This is a guy that they said they were going to pay. A guy who dragoneer kept blaming minor inconveniences on not paying him. Dragoneer's incompetence has actually opened them up to potential legal action. Potential legal action that they would lose.

Conan

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2016, 09:55:34 pm »
Could you imagine how loud Neer and Sciggles would be if someone forgot to pay either of them for one commission, let alone three months worth??

I should know better, but I feel like this may be the thing that gets Piche in hot water with IMVU. His incompetence has opened IMVU to potential legal action, and that's definitely not worth the trouble of keeping him around. He has now proven to them he is a terrible manager who doesn't understand the consequences of his inaction.

This whole not ever wanting to hold FA/IMVU accountabe for anything needs to stop. FA is not some hobby funded out of Princess Piche's pocket anymore, it is a part of IMVU and has access to their deep pockets. If suing IMVU for unpaid wages brings about the closure of FA, that just goes to show you they were in it for the money, not because they wanted to "help the fandom".


Anarcho-Loser

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 01:58:59 am »
Taken from the first comment of the youtube vid

Quote from: SIlverEagle
Just so everyone knows, I'm not planning any kind of legal action. I wanted to get this story out for the purpose of making everyone aware of what I had dealt with, and how it impacted me in the end. I don't think it's taking the high road to get litigious about this kind of thing.

Since posting this, Dragoneer has insisted that I will be paid for the work I completed prior to my departure. I'm sincerely hoping this does pan out, because I very much need it now. I will keep everyone updated with what goes on there.

I appreciate the support from everyone. I don't think I could handle this kind of thing on my own.

Still, as has been said previously, the fact that the situation occurred at all will probably be enough to get Piche a talking to.
We tried, we failed.

graeme

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2016, 05:57:12 am »
Quote from: SIlverEagle
Just so everyone knows, I'm not planning any kind of legal action. I wanted to get this story out for the purpose of making everyone aware of what I had dealt with, and how it impacted me in the end. I don't think it's taking the high road to get litigious about this kind of thing.

Since posting this, Dragoneer has insisted that I will be paid for the work I completed prior to my departure. I'm sincerely hoping this does pan out, because I very much need it now. I will keep everyone updated with what goes on there.

I appreciate the support from everyone. I don't think I could handle this kind of thing on my own.


Which is absolutely unabashedly stupid.  If you do contract work for a living, the ONLY THING is your contract. If you're not willing to enforce that, then don't work contract :P

As for "the high road."  The high road is to pay the fucker for the work.  The high road is to make the courts make IMVU pay the fucker for the work, or make dragoneer sell his new house to pay the fucker for the work.  That's the high road.  The low, chickenshit road, is to publish a tell-all video, and then say "I'm just doing this to warn people."  People've been "warned" about Piche and his crew for nearly 10 years now.  Nobody cares.

Gryphoneer

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 07:34:10 am »
Quote from: SIlverEagle
Since posting this, Dragoneer has insisted that I will be paid for the work I completed prior to my departure.

How? If I haven't missed a major turn of events, the IMVU acquisition changed nothing about FA writing their ledgers with carmine-red ink. I'm not sure IMVU will be up for coughing up hush money. Who else is he gonna pump for money?

Anyway, I don't think I can agree with the cries for retribution. So, Silver is to sue Piche. OK. With what funds? He's so destitute it drove him suicidal by his own account.

As bad as this is, it's just another perfectly heinous act in a long unbroken line reaching back to FA's founding. A line that will be perpetuated. Piche has never (truly) payed for his wrongdoings, he won't here either. He already deluded Silver into forgoing serious measures, this whole affair will peter out like they always do.

Anarcho-Loser

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2016, 07:51:16 am »
I dont think they necessarily have to sue. They could file a complaint through a state or possibly federal labor agency since witholding wages is illegal. But if they are considered an independant contractor, I dont know if that changes things.
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N

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2016, 08:44:46 am »
I dont think they necessarily have to sue. They could file a complaint through a state or possibly federal labor agency since witholding wages is illegal. But if they are considered an independant contractor, I dont know if that changes things.

Yeah it does. Independent contractors can't sue for wage theft or deal with the labor board, but they can sue for breach of contract. This is, of course, assuming his contractor classification was correct... It usually isn't in silicon valley (see uber et all) but its still a bigger hurdle to jump over vs just going after breach of contract.

ProvincialTwit

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 09:15:15 am »
Repeating a question here.

I couldn't be bothered to watch the video, but did this guy actually have a contract of any kind?  I mean like, an actual, legally binding, signed document?  Because, c'mon, furries are idiots, even by IT worker standards; I wouldn't be surprised if the 'contract' was just a napkin-and-handshake sort of deal, in which case - awful and exploitative as it might be - the dude got pretty much what he deserved.

Anarcho-Loser

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 10:26:04 am »
Repeating a question here.

From my understanding of the video, there was a contract, but the developer began working before IMVU signed off on it. Piche never forwarded the contract to IMVU and it was never actually signed by the company.

Some other things I learned:

-Theyve been using FA for years, but didnt know about the IMVU acquisition.

-When IMVU took over, they fired the non americans.

-They signed FAs favorite piece of paperwork, an NDA!

-The salary they had negotiated was supposedly so low, they would have qualified for food stamps where they lived even if they had actually gotten paid.

-They were pulling from their retirement to survive. Hope it wasnt a traditional IRA cause if so, that fuckin sucks.
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an Hoopoe

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 12:37:09 pm »
Happy to answer any questions you guys have, short of stuff that's covered explicitly in the world-famous FA NDA.

1) I've chatted to a person who was a mod/admin for FA back in 2005: I've heard that back then Dragoneer was paranoid and procrastinating, had a mean streak to him and would turn on people suddenly. Do you think Dragoneer is still exactly the same?

2) What were Chase and Sciggles like? Is Sciggles as clipped, dictatorial and rude with the staff as she is with the users? Is Chase as slimy and arrogant as he is with the users?

3) Do you think that Yak is an incompetent who fights tooth and nail to keep his position regardless of the detrimental effects on the community that uses the site?

Also, someone on lulz.net noted that Dragoneer was messaged on reddit about this issue but ignored the mssg. in favour of posting about Elder Scrolls online and other inane things:



You can even check Dragoneer's account on reddit here and he was posting about Elderscrolls online just 2 minutes ago as of me making this post:

https://www.reddit.com/user/dragoneerfa

Any time you see Dragoneer making excuses just you see how active he's been on reddit, twitter or elder scrolls online.

N

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 12:41:17 pm »
Hey guys, Silver Eagle here. (https://twitter.com/SlvrEagle23/status/692436706847539201)

Hey man. Glad to hear things are looking up. IMVU isn't as incompetent as some people make them out to be. There's a difference between furry bs drama and yanno... Breach of contract.

EDIT: also I want to say I hope dragoneer actually gets in trouble internally for this, which of course we'll never see... But somehow I doubt it will actually happen.

Anarcho-Loser

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2016, 12:56:39 pm »
https://twitter.com/SlvrEagle23/status/692441010916429825

The above tweet states that IMVU are passing the responsibility to someone else. Are they pointing the finger at FA or at a different entity?
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ColonThree

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2016, 01:21:20 pm »
https://twitter.com/SlvrEagle23/status/692441010916429825

The above tweet states that IMVU are passing the responsibility to someone else. Are they pointing the finger at FA or at a different entity?

For the first in 11 years, someone might actually get reimbursed after being fucked by FA, and it had to come from IMVU.

Meanwhile Dragoneer probably still owes commissions from before IMVU even acquired them.
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N

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2016, 02:45:37 pm »
They've indicated that the FULL payment I'm owed is headed my direction as of this afternoon, and I'll be able to confirm that has arrived in the next day or two. After that, I'll post up a video indicating that the biggest of my worries is, thankfully, over.

I can't overstate just how professional and responsive the team at IMVU has been in handling this. For all the crap we give them as a community, these are a bunch of adults who have their shit together in every sense of the phrase, and they're not about to have an issue like this go unaddressed. Kudos to them.

I've been mentioning this on Twitter, but IMVU is a real company. I'm glad they actually have their shit together to hold up their ends of contracts, but the VP was probably fuming when he found out about this.

I'm curious... based on the discussions you've had, did any of the excuses dragoneer gave you (blah blah blah need a different account type etc. etc.) actually materialize in any sort of truthful way? Or did he just legitimately just excuse himself for not bothering to file the contract. (Or, alternatively my worry, he didn't have the authority to hire anyone in the first place and never had any intentions of actually paying you)

an Hoopoe

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2016, 02:57:48 pm »
The funny thing is...I think the people *inside* FA know what a train wreck they've gotten themselves into, but they know that if you were to yank Yak's access overnight, he would still have 20 different ways to wreck shit up, and there's no way they could catch them all at once.

Thanks for answering the questions.

Yak lives in Moldova: a small country in Eastern Europe sandwiched between the Ukraine and Romania. It's very poor and the avg. salary is the equivalent of c. $3500 a year. So if Yak was getting just $500 a month he'd be doing pretty well for himself there, even better if he was being paid in US$. Assuming he is getting paid of course.

There have also been suspicions in the past that Yak might be using the FA servers to host Moldovan websites to earn a private income:

"There are several believable theories that Yak is doing something shady with the servers. A number of weeks ago, the Database server's WWW server directed you to a Moldovian electronics retailer. Yak also lives in Moldova"
^
https://forums.vivisector.org/index.php?topic=480.msg4960#msg4960

BTW, did you know that in 2010 there was a massive private notes leak from FA? Some details here:

https://forums.vivisector.org/index.php?topic=434.0

IMVU would probably want to know about that sort of thing.

graeme

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Re: FA coder is unpaid after 100s of hours of work - Exploited by FA
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2016, 05:25:59 pm »
Quote
Yak: Here's your problem. I found it, and it's called Yak. He may well be the single greatest obstacle to forward progress in FA's history, and the amazing thing is that for all I know he's being *paid* to be it. His unwillingness to trust any new developers beyond himself means that he has cemented himself as the sole king of the IT assets of FA. The code he writes reminds me of myself in the early 2000s, except he's writing it today. It is also highly likely that the open-sourced code that I released, the rewrite that secures and modernizes the FA web application, will never be implemented on the production servers, and he will be the sole reason.

Oh yes.  Long been rumored that Yak's got some dirt on Sean, and likely has been using the servers for some very nefarious purposes.  Getting him out would probably mean FA would be nuked.